Author Topic: All you HO guys... (Read 2381 times)

Toad · « **on:** August 11, 2001, 10:49:00 AM »

...are continuing a common WW2 tradition.

From Air Classics, Vol 37, #9, p.20:

"Bill Reese Doubles

Fortunately for the reader, 486th Bill Reese vividly recalls his double victory on 27 December, and shares these memories with us. "I was flying No. 4 postition with "Olaf" (Earnest O. Bostrom) as Flight Lead and LT. Bill Gerbe as Element Lead. I was flying Gerbe's wing, and saw a pair of Me-109's coming up and behind us. I called in Bandits and whipped over and out of formation. Gerbe said, 'have at them and I'll cover you,' and I did. I got the German 109 wingman in the cockpit and he immediately crashed- at this time we were only about 200-300 feet above the ground.

"The German leader was a horse of a different color. He was good! He immediately pulled up into the sun (on a nice clear day). The 109 could climb at a sharper angle than a P-51, so I just kept the plane at full bore and just above a stall. Lieutenant Gerbe tried shooting his guns, stalled and spun out, and I didn't see him again until back at Y-29 (he recovered okay, but was so low he didn't have time to get back into the action). After the German flight leader had pulled away for me a little, he did a full rudder turn and came back firing away. Fortunately he was close to a stall and he couldn't pull his nose up high enough. I could see his tracers going well under me. The first time we had this head-on confrontation, he passed about 50 feet under me, and I lost him momentarily while trying to get turned around. I found him again climbing back into the sun. The second time he came at me was an exact rerun, except we were passing each other a little closer. Again I lost him under me and then he was climbing back into the sun. I knew I had to do something to break this cycle, and I did. Next time he came charging back at me with his guns blazing, I was still in a steep climb-but upside down. This time I did not lose sight of him for even a second, and when he started to chandelle back toward the sun, I was sitting behind him firing my guns. I was still flying too slow for my sight to be much good but I managed to get a couple of hits near his canopy. The next thing I knew, the canopy came off and he bailed out."

Head-ons happened and happen.

If you find yourself in front of an enemy gun barrel, be it pointed at your derriere, your toes, your elbow, your ribs or that tiny spot between your beady little eyes ask yourself who's fault it is that there's a gun pointing at you.

"Do some of that pilot sh*t, Mav".

Edited for typos.

[ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]

Hangtime · « **Reply #1 on:** August 11, 2001, 11:07:00 AM »

Toad fer President!

Wotan · « **Reply #2 on:** August 11, 2001, 02:14:00 PM »

hos happened but not as a matter of tactic like it is used in the main.

How many combat sorties were flown in wwii

how many resulted in someone being shot down

how many resulted in being shot down in a ho

what the total percentage of kills achieved by ho in wwii?

Now compare that with the percenatges of ho kills in ah.

Hos in wwii were a very rare. No one ever said they never occur.

Even your own post shows that after 3 ho attempts no hits were recieved by either side. It took some acm skill to get the kill.

Just a typical mindless toad thread I guess.

I have np with how people fly in the main its their choice. I have no problems countering a ho either through acm or an a8 with 30mm. Its just some use the ho as a crutch and you can usually predict what planes and what pilots will resort to it not matter what state they are in at the merge.

I usually avoid your posts because they rarely have anything to offer I can only figure I must be bored.

[ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: Wotan ]

sax · « **Reply #3 on:** August 11, 2001, 02:29:00 PM »

Wotan for Vice President

Sax

Toad · « **Reply #4 on:** August 11, 2001, 02:35:00 PM »

Wotan, I am so hurt...

but I do want to point out that HO was a typical tactic in the PAC.

Further, are you somehow implying that the % of types of attack in AH should somehow match WW2? How are you going to implement that, may I ask? Give someone a "B&Z" allotment and when it's gone, no more B&Z for a while?

Go ahead, slap me around some more.

BTW, you'll note that Bill Reese never mentions shooting at the second 109 until he was behind him.

Dowding · « **Reply #5 on:** August 11, 2001, 03:35:00 PM »

The HO was used in all theatres where you had two combatants flying aircraft equipped with balistic weapons.

mrfish · « **Reply #6 on:** August 11, 2001, 04:03:00 PM »

yeah i was watching flying leathernecks the other day and the duke himself (god rest him...) not only ho'd, but also ran and rammed!

if it's ok for his dukeliness it's alright by me by cod.....

Wotan · « **Reply #7 on:** August 11, 2001, 04:10:00 PM »

Of course there were hos thats a given.

Quote

Further, are you somehow implying that the % of types of attack in AH should somehow match WW2? How are you going to implement that, may I ask? Give someone a "B&Z" allotment and when it's gone, no more B&Z for a while?

Again these type of conclusions you make are why I rarely read a toad thread or reply.

Where do you get that inference? I am pointing out that in a game / sim people resort to hoing more frequantly then in rl. There's no hidden meaning behind that. That statement is fact and stands alone no matter what meaning you attach to it.

You use words like "typical" and "common" which implies that hos were used with some frequency. All I am saying is that given the number of a2a kills in wwii the percentage of aircraft killed in a ho disproves any notion that hos were typical or common.

Theres no other hidden meaning here as well.

People fly ah to kill they fly more agressively then rl and take greater risks. All of that makes atleast for me a fun time.

Ho don't ho I could careless.

I would never assume that I would be able to "slap you around" via a bbs forum. Especially since you along with several others have a much higher skill level then myself in this field.

I therefore resort (much like the ho) to the only effective defense I have.

To not read those threads.....

1776 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 11, 2001, 04:13:00 PM »

Can't we just perk the HO? That'll put a stop to it!!

Toad · « **Reply #9 on:** August 11, 2001, 04:19:00 PM »

So, let's see...

We both agree that HO's happened in WW2 ACM.

We both probably agree that there are NO meaningful statistics kept on "HO's attempted" or on "HO's successful" in the WW2 records of any side. Therefore, speculation on the frequency or success of actual WW2 HO's is pointless.

We both agree that HO's happen in AH.

We both probably agree that NO meaningful stats are kept on "HO's attempted" or "HO's successful" in AH either. Therefore, speculation on the frequency or success of actual AH HO's is pointless.

We both agree that if you have anything close to corner speed a HO is pretty easy to avoid in AH.

We both probably agree that sometimes (low E for example) you may have to take an HO shot yourself.

Neither one of us apparently cares a bit what the other guy flies or how he flies it.

So, please forgive me, what was the point of either one of your posts?

Wotan · « **Reply #10 on:** August 11, 2001, 04:39:00 PM »

Quote

We both probably agree that there are NO meaningful statistics kept on "HO's attempted" or on "HO's successful" in the WW2 records of any side. Therefore, speculation on the frequency or success of actual WW2 HO's is pointless.

I assume you have no factual basis for your claim if you agree to the above statement.

So you have changed your tone from when you stated

Quote

...are continuing a common WW2 tradition.

and

Quote

but I do want to point out that HO was a typical tactic in the PAC.

Do you then agree that if hos were typical, common and a tradition you would be able to supply more then anecdotal evidence to support that?

You made a claim and I do not agree with it.

That was the point of my replies.

Other then that your right there is no point to my replies.......

I told you I was bored........

N. Florida weather its pouring rain and thunder storms continue to roll in ...........

I can only speculate why you started this thread. I assumed it was to counter the claim that hos were rare in wwii.

<S>

enough from me now I am even more bored

Hangtime · « **Reply #11 on:** August 11, 2001, 04:45:00 PM »

Yah gotta watch fer old Toad.. in the air or on the boards. He'll make yah think; work for your points and offers nothin up fer free.

Proceed with caution; wherever yah run ito him... and in either place, it's always a blast when yah run across him.

Preach on; Brother Toad!

sax · « **Reply #12 on:** August 11, 2001, 05:18:00 PM »

Amen Hang.

You gotta hear Toad and Rude on our squad channel.

My heart was uplifted to 35k one time while they preached thier gospel to the Tas flock

By the way Wotan, Toad knows what he preaches.

You just another wannabe.

Sax

DanielMcIntyre · « **Reply #13 on:** August 11, 2001, 05:22:00 PM »

HO's are fine with me. I regularly HO in the MA if the situation requires it. And I get my fair share of "HO DWEEB" attacks, usually from broken flaming TnB'rs as they plummet towards the virtual dirt.

I fly the Typh (mainly because not many do) almost exclusively and given the armament and toughness of the plane I have considerable success when cons initiate or accept a HO attack.

Basically there are 4 types of HO's

The Suicidal Ho'er

I'll generally only initiate or accept a HO if the opponent is a lightly armed ac ie spit, zero, yak, 205 etc. I'd much prefer to BnZ my opponents but these types of HO'ers really annoy me, they have no hope of winning yet they still HO? and usually die. Stupid, yes.

The WTF HO'er

When an AC accepts or initiates a HO attack with an AC with similiar firepower. These are rediculous and probably only occur because the combatants play quake a lot.

The Disadvantaged HO'er

You're low, slow and vs 2 AC and then a N1K suddenly arrives 5k above you. Your dead anyhow?

The Tactical HO'er

Your AC has great firepower, doe'snt turn real well and your fighting a faster, more manuaverable but lightly armed AC.

A lot of people can probably identify with one or more of these scenarios at one point or another during their time playing AH. Fact is that sometimes HO's are ok and other times their just silly. If you don't like them, then just avoid them.

Chow <- Austraspanglish for Cya

Dago · « **Reply #14 on:** August 11, 2001, 05:28:00 PM »

Sorry to disagree Wotan, but I was staying at a hotel in Detroit last year, and it just so happened there was a reunion of a P38 fighter group there.

I spent as much time as I could talking with those guys, and trying to learn as much as I could from them, when I asked them about Head On attacks.

Their responce was unanimous "We specialized in head on attacks!".

Now, I am sure you have studied WW2 tactics, but I will go with the guys who were did, who fought the fights, buried their brothers and wrote the books of history. They told me HO's were common and I believe them.

Dago

[ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: Dago ]