Of "furballers", "realism" and the MA...

[lazs1]

taken from another thread, I said..

what i have seen called "furballs" in AH are... any fite
                     that has more than 2 or so planes in it. certainly a fite with eight planes is considered a
                     furball and any with 10 or more is considered a HUGE furball. ac tactics asside (they came
                     into play very seldom or in the most rudimentary ways in WWII)... fites in WWII were of
                     the 4 to 200 plane variety. The WWII pilots were mindless furballers by dint of simply
                     flying in finger fours against other squads... The "fog of war" and the "i never even seen
                     him" were because of the melees (furballs) not.... in spite of em.

                     Now of course, if you guys can show me where flying lone wolf hunter was a common WWII
                     tactic...or that even 1 vs 1 fites were more common than "furballs"...

                     ironicly... the furballers in AH, who care not at all (in general) about "recreating" WWII air
                     combat, are the ones who are most doing so. The "fog of war" they create is exactly the
                     same as the real "fog of war" (and just as exciting in a virtual way). The lone wolf and
                     "realism" crowd would rather recreate a "fog of war" that never existed or did so in
                     microcosm with maybe a plane now and then being seperated from the melee for whatever
                     reason.

                     if you make claim to flying realisticly or "historicly" in AH then.... Unless you are a furballer
                     you are a pretentious, devious blowhard who is..... wrong.

I would add that ther MA is about having fun.  No matter how you cut it... people in the ma vote with their feet.. they head for the nearest and bigest furball and stay there till someone gets pissy and makes it impossible for one side or the other to take off.  Conversly, "strat" and "realism" buffs have to us a combination of force and whining to get people to fly their way...  

I would be happy to let em have another arena to "fix" but believe that it would be deserted.  Not only that but the strat/realism crowd is not only small but fragmented.... unlike noble furballers they have a lot of spare time and use that to envision more and more anal, complex and contradictory elements that they are sure will highlight their particular "talent", mostly, at the expense of fellow "realism/strat" aficianado's.

any change that makes it harder to find a fite or for a large fite to exist... is anti fun and anti realism...  one might even say... anti American...  
                     lazs

[Seeker]

Preach on, Brother Laz!

(un-American? WTF does that mean? Texan?)

[AKDejaVu]

I agree with some of what you say lazs.. especially the part about lone-wolfing.

What I don't agree with is your assertion that furballing was more historical.

You want to use the term historical?  You throw in long tedious flights just waiting for something to encroach your airfield.  You throw in some 1000lb bombs and start looking for trains or ground units.  You have someone in charge of you telling you exactly what to do.  That's historical.

Last I checked, the AH version of furballing didn't even remotely fit into this.  I don't believe instant respawning and fights that were completely below 5k are anything near historical.

But they sure are fun.  And that should be the main concern in the MA.  I'd promote a furball over lone-wolsquealing any day.

AKDejaVu

[Creamo]

For

[lazs1]

deja... we agree.   I too realize that the vast majority of WWII combat was.... no combat at all.

All of us realize that AH is compressed to eliminate much of this useless and boring part.  My contention is that WHEN THERE IS COMBAT.. that furballing best recreates what WWII air combat was like.   The possible exception being that the alt is low and there aren't enough planes involved... still, it is  at least twice as "realistic" and "historical" as whatever is in second place.
lazs

[hblair]

I agree with you fellas that we some kinda tower only radar.

<g,d,r!>

[AKDejaVu]

OK.. if your only talking about combat situations... then nothing is really more "historical" than anything else.

The fog of war aspect is there... but this is found in any aspect of the game.  Will there be a fighter to meet your bomber over a base?  Will you spot him in time?  That is realistic too.

What is totally unrealistic about furballs is that they go on and on forever without really surving any purpose.  Historically.. that did not happen.  Even the mass engagements were over relatively quick.  And I wonder how many of those big engagements involved fighting until the last plane is down.

They were also made up of squads going against other squads.  That's groups of pilots that have trained together.  It is completely possible to be a lone-wolf pilot inside of a furball.

I dunno... I think furballs are fun.  I just don't see very much about them to call historical.

AKDejaVu

[skernsk]

You have the cart before the horse lazs.

Furballing was the result of a STRATEGIC mission.  A bunch of bombers and escorts flew deep into Germany and a flight of 190's intercepted them resulting in  a furball.


A group of heavy P47's went on a jabo mission into northern France and resulted in a low level furball.

Furballs in AH are fun and strat goal oriented  missions are jsut as much fun.  BTW what was your point?


   

[lazs1]

deja.. i believe that furballs serve the same purpose in AH that they did in the war... you get to shoot down enemy planes.  Most guys lost their wingman in those melees, forget about squad!  at the heart of it a fighter pilot was more of an individual than any other guy who fought in WWII and especially in the melee..   The actual melee or furball is very historical.  it does last a long time but some did.  some in AH are over in less than a minute.   what we see is new furballs happening right as the old one is over.   nothing wrong with that tho... just more fun than WWII.

skernsk... there are no "historical" or strategic missions in AH that have any semblance of history.   Not in the flights nor in the targets.  My point is that furballs or melees are not only fun but contrary to a lot of the bull being tossed around, they are a lot more "historical" so far as air combat goes, than whatever is in second place.   I understand that you feel missions are fun (don't understand why, however)....  I would not try to stop you but... any change in the MA that hurts furballs is hurting "realism" so far as air combat is concerned.   "fun" is a matter of opinion but looking at the MA it is easy to see what most people find to be fun.   Put two fields close together and don't make it impossible for fighters to come up at either one of em and you will see what most guys think is fun in the MA...

So tell me... what's in second place?  

Yes hblair we need more and better dar,  in order to preserve the realism that is furball.  without it we would be adrift... spread out and blind... the holy furball lost in a miasma of lone wolf streak pansies and "capture the flag" mission types who would wander off to other sims once they realized that they were getting what they wanted and more bored than ever.  livestock would cease to be fertile..  people would fly LW planes and p51's and any of a number of horrible things would happen.   laughter would end.  crops would die.  it's just not worth taking the chance hblair.
lazs

[lazs1]

deja said.. "What is totally unrealistic about furballs is that they go on and on forever without really
                     surving any purpose. Historically.. that did not happen. Even the mass engagements were
                     over relatively quick. And I wonder how many of those big engagements involved fighting
                     until the last plane is down."

of course you are correct but are these not very small sins on reality when compared to the whopper, mortal go to hell, go directly to hell do not pass go, sin(s) that is field capture in AH???   I mean... how many fields were captured in WWII in anything like this manner or, to compare apples to apples.... the time frame that we have in AH.  not to mention respawn etc.  if field capture is in second place realism wise it is a very distant second.

thing is... far as realism goes.. I only care about FM's, damage models and gunnery.  I just find it ironic is all.  
lazs

[Nifty]

lazs, is your original post/point just about the semantics of "historical", "realistic", and/or "correct"??

[Yeager]

Furballing sucks and is boring requireing no skill or prethought just dumb caveman with club behavior very boring to be in but I like zipping through but even that gets boring in fact the whole damned thing gets pretty boring almost as much as reading these damned fester and lazs posts but hey what the hell have fun.

[lazs1]

actualy nifty, it's about irony and hypocricy.  
lazs

[Nifty]

Originally posted by lazs1:
actualy nifty, it's about irony and hypocricy.  
lazs

then your post made perfect sense, to me at least.  I just wanted to make sure that's where you were coming from.  

[AKSWulfe]

You know Lazs, the more they push for the persistant war environment (no doubt spawned by reading about WWIIOl), the more I am realising how much I am in agreeance with you in regards to many issues that you bring up.

This certainly can not be a good thing.  
-SW