Whats this?

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Boroda


Did I miss something?

March, 1940, Soviet tanks on the ice of the Finnish Gulf, Mannerheim line broken and nothing to stop them on the way to Helsinki...

It was a heroic attempt - but Soviet victory was only a question of time Anyway - my hat off for Suomi people.

Compare the casualty figures comrade, they killed a whole bunch of russians, no matter who's tanks rolled where.

In the end they managed to stay an independent country, despite the Soviet efforts to occupy them.

I'd say the Finns won that war, no matter how much land the Soviets ended up grabbing.

[mrsid2]

But hey, that's old news really..

Now we enjoy our Russian neighbours who bring dollars to our shops, bath spa's and motels. Every day our local markets get busloads of tourists buying diapers and ironing boards by truckloads.. I've seen people walk away with a load of 30 ironing boards and 40 packets of diapers. Per buyer I mean.. Someone must be making good profit with them back in russia

Only problem really is that if you go shopping during 11 am - 3 pm you'll have to queue for 20 minutes with all the tourists. Fortunately I don't shop at that time.

Oh, and the suicidal driving habits of the russians.. That I don't like.

[Wmaker]

Originally posted by Boroda
Did I miss something?

March, 1940, Soviet tanks on the ice of the Finnish Gulf, Mannerheim line broken and nothing to stop them on the way to Helsinki...

It was a heroic attempt - but Soviet victory was only a question of time Anyway - my hat off for Suomi people.

LOL, well, there indeed were russian tanks and troops on the ice deck of Gulf of Viipuri (look at a map, that's a pretty long way from Helsinki) during the final days of winter war.

The situation was indeed critical there but the soviet assault suffered tremedous losses (even 2000 men per day). These losses were inflicted by Finnish infantry and by Flight Regiments 1 and 2 (Flight Regiment 2's fighters restriction to engage ground targets was removed sole purpose for this being the strafing of soviet troops on the ice deck).

So...

First:

There were no Red Army troops any where near Helsinki.

Second:

Soviets troops indeed had "something" to stop them on every section of the front. Otherwise there wouldn't have been 2000 men soviet losses per day.

Finnish losses were 21396 KIA and 1434 MIA.

Russian losses were about 200000 KIA and 600000 wounded.

Yep, I'd say finns kicked some commie butt.

"Nobody respects a country with a poor army, but everybody respects a country with a good army. I raise my toast to the Finnish Army."

J. Stalin 1948

[Boroda]

USSR NEVER intended to occupy Finland. If Stalin wanted it - there was no way to stop him.

Wmaker, Finnish defence was broken, and  you know it. Finnish parliament was clever enough to surrender and agree with pre-war Soviet conditions.

Good quote from J.S. It's exactly what I think.

Soviet losses were extremely big... My Father said that his high school in Rostov-on-Don was closed in winter, 1940, and turned into a military hospital. Rostov is more then 2000km South from Leningrad...

Mrsid - LOL!!! In late-80s we had exactly the same thing here, with Poles buying everything And Russian driving habbits are really crazy. Especially here in Moscow. In Leningrad drivers are almost sane

[mrsid2]

Boroda lets keep in mind however that the intention of the russian army was to cut across the middle part of finland in 2 weeks, dividing the country in two.

After that there would probably have been occupation..

That 2 weeks stretched a little as we know. Our defence was on the virge of breaking at the end of war, but our diplomats turned the situation to our victory. We kept our independence.

There was only one front where the soviet military got stoped during ww2 major offensives, and that was the finnish front.

We lost men, we lost ground, but we stoped the soviet army from fulfilling its military objectives. I'd call that a defensive victory.

We = my grandfathers and their fathers. I had obviously nothing to do with the whole ordeal, luckily.

[Boroda]

There was only one front where the soviet military got stoped during ww2 major offensives, and that was the finnish front.

There was only one front in WWII where nazi military got stoped during ww2 major offensives, and that was the Karelian/Polar front.



They were unable to cut the Musrmansk railway line. USSR had a "backup" railway, but the main line, built in 1916, was intact. Murmansk was a key non-freezing port, and it was working even after LW "knights" burned the whole city to ashes...

And again: if J.S. wanted to occupy Finland - he could easily do it. He was satisfied after the border line was moved away from Leningrad, and Finland got 2 times more land in Karelia, as Soviet government suggested in 1939.

Funny that Mannerheim was probably the most sane Finnish leader - he was against war with USSR. He was a Russian Engineering Corps general.

[Seeker]

"There was only one front in WWII where nazi military got stoped during ww2 major offensives, "

I take it you mean the English Channel?

[Wmaker]

Originally posted by Boroda
USSR NEVER intended to occupy Finland. If Stalin wanted it - there was no way to stop him.

Wmaker, Finnish defence was broken, and  you know it. Finnish parliament was clever enough to surrender and agree with pre-war Soviet conditions.

Boroda, all you have is your own opinion.

-Among historians all over the world it's a clear fact that USSR tried to occupy Finland in the Winter War.

-USSR allready lost 600000 soldiers in what you call "pushing the boarder farther from Leningrad. And you say Stalin could have easily invaded Finland???

-There is that secret agreement document between Hitler and Stalin. It has been proven and found to be true by historians all over the world. I remember you saying it's only a cold war relic. Boroda, where's your proof?? You have only your on opinion on this, nothing more. That agreement alone proves you wrong. If you have something revolutionary information which would change the history books then by all means share it with us.

-There were parade instruments found by finns from the troops on the Raate-road at Suomussalmi. They were supposed to be in victory parade in Oulu. Also in general those troops were better equipped to have fun in Oulu than to fight in Finnish winter which was extremely harsh in 1939 (-40 degrees of Celsius). These troops came mostly from southern USSR and they weren't used nor equipped to handle finnish climate.

-Then there was a book published by the Red Army..."Marching guide to Finland". It describes in detail even the smallest roads and terrain in southern Finland.

Finnish defense was tired outnumbered and under stress, no doubt about it. And finally, Finland did NOT surrender if Finland would have surrendered we'd be talking russian and Lappeenranta for example would just as bad shape as Viipuri is right now. Damn that city would have been beautiful in finnish hands...

[Boroda]

I mean - stopped with armed force on the ground

Nice one, thanks

[Wmaker]

Originally posted by Seeker
"There was only one front in WWII where nazi military got stoped during ww2 major offensives, "

I take it you mean the English Channel?

Hmm...where's the frontline??

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Wmaker


Boroda, all you have is your own opinion.

-Among historians all over the world it's a clear fact that USSR tried to occupy Finland in the Winter War.

I didn't read any books by that "historians".

Originally posted by Wmaker


-USSR allready lost 600000 soldiers in what you call "pushing the boarder farther from Leningrad. And you say Stalin could have easily invaded Finland???

HOW MUCH!? You still call them "historians"?! He DID invade Finland.

Originally posted by Wmaker


-There is that secret agreement document between Hitler and Stalin. It has been proven and found to be true by historians all over the world. I remember you saying it's only a cold war relic. Boroda, where's your proof?? You have only your on opinion on this, nothing more. That agreement alone proves you wrong. If you have something revolutionary information which would change the history books then by all means share it with us.

No proof. "Secret protocols" to the "Molotov-Ribbentrp" treaty are a well-known fake. Fake. Once again - FAKE.

Originally posted by Wmaker


-There were parade instruments found by finns from the troops on the Raate-road at Suomussalmi. They were supposed to be in victory parade in Oulu. Also in general those troops were better equipped to have fun in Oulu than to fight in Finnish winter which was extremely harsh in 1939 (-40 degrees of Celsius). These troops came mostly from southern USSR and they weren't used nor equipped to handle finnish climate.

No comments, sorry. Thank you for the information. Would you be so kind to provide me any links in Russian or English?

Originally posted by Wmaker


-Then there was a book published by the Red Army..."Marching guide to Finland". It describes in detail even the smallest roads and terrain in southern Finland.

No surprise. I think that Finnish and German army had detailed descriptions of Soviet territory.

Originally posted by Wmaker


Finnish defense was tired outnumbered and under stress, no doubt about it. And finally, Finland did NOT surrender if Finland would have surrendered we'd be talking russian and Lappeenranta for example would just as bad shape as Viipuri is right now. Damn that city would have been beautiful in finnish hands...

Again: there was no intention to occupy the whole Finland. We got what we wanted, and it was cleraly stated before the white-Finn war.

I have greatest respect for Finnish people. You are a great example of what Russian Empire could be without bolsheviks....

[Seeker]

"Hmm...where's the frontline??"

France, of course.

What else is it there for?

[Wmaker]

Originally posted by Boroda
I didn't read any books by that "historians".

Well, here's few opinions of the russians:

"The deeds of the Finns during the Winter War gave others an example of how a people must fight for its independence."

Colonel General Dimitrij Volkogonov, February 1989

"The truth was on the side of the Finns when they heroically defended their freedom and their independence."

Historian Boris Sokolov, December 1989

Another historians' opinion:

"In early March Stalin conceded defeat, abandoning his occupation plans and settling for a compromise agreement, leaving Finland independent. With the signing of the Peace Agreement on 13 March Finland had to cede 10 % of her territory to the USSR, but Finland herself remained free."

Dr. Tomas Ries, senior researcher,
National Defence College, Finland

Source for these quotes:
http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/war1.html

Originally posted by Boroda
HOW MUCH!? You still call them "historians"?! He DID invade Finland.

Got my figures mixed up. I of course meant 200000 soldiers.
And no, he didn't invade Finland.
(That link I posted above gives 400000 figure btw.)

Originally posted by Boroda
No proof. "Secret protocols" to the "Molotov-Ribbentrp" treaty are a well-known fake. Fake. Once again - FAKE.

No proof? Well it just something your little mind has made up??
Well, you know, if it makes you sleep better at night...

Originally posted by Boroda
No comments, sorry. Thank you for the information. Would you be so kind to provide me any links in Russian or English?

This was all in a TV documentary about the Raate-road battle. There were quite a few russian veterans interviewed in it. It was made from the soviet viewpoint...how the soviet survivors remembered it.

Originally posted by Boroda
No surprise. I think that Finnish and German army had detailed descriptions of Soviet territory.

In the preface it said that it was meant for invasion forces.

EDIT/Here's a foreign view: http://www.historyhouse.com/in_history/winter_war/ /EDIT

[mipoikel]

Some links...

http://www.raatteenportti.fi/

http://www.winterwar.com

[SageFIN]

I'm quite inclined to agree with Boroda in the fact that if the USSR had really wanted to commit itself wholly to the occupation of Finland, there would have been no chance of stopping them at all. Finnish patriots may drivel and babble all they want, but I think that the outcome of such a turn of events is quite obvious.

So the net result was a Soviet offensive of a smaller scale, though quite big enough for Finland as it was. At some point the Soviet command apparently decided that they'd make do with what had been accomplished so far.

Obviously it all depended ultimately on the decisions of the Soviet command, so mrsid's opinion "-- our diplomats turned the situation to our victory" doesn't exactly make sense. Of course Finland would be looking for a diplomatical solution as the situation at the front got worse, but I'd say that J.S. was the one calling the shots. You can bet your bellybutton off that I'm glad of how the events played out, though, whatever the possibilites could have been.