Author Topic: Whats this? (Read 1681 times)

SageFIN · « **Reply #45 on:** April 10, 2002, 12:42:05 AM »

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Originally posted by Boroda

What I don't like is that USSR is painted as an "evil empire" in the West. There is no one without a sin, but the things were not as bad as they are pictured now.

Well, at least USSR were way ahead of any western nation in what comes to the relationship between religion and state. I could not help but chuckle at the irony after having read that at least one of the churches in the USSR had been put to use as a museum of religious history and freethought. Too bad that apparently the religions were replaced with cults of personal deitification.

Boroda · « **Reply #46 on:** April 10, 2002, 10:20:00 AM »

Dr Zhivago, now I'll tell you one thing, please, don't get angry...

Calling them partisans is very incorrect.

Diversionary units meeting local militia. How was it called? Shutskor? They were civilians, right?

147 "civilians" killed by Soviet saboteurs...

However, the Finns called those troops of their own who conducted operations in the enemy rear areas, long range patrolmen.

I doubt that anyone counted victims of Finnish terrorist groups (see the difference in definitions? I intentionaly make you look at it from Soviet side), while many thousands of ethnic Russians were in concentration camps in Karelia.

Soviet partisans were not soldiers, nor were they under military command. Instead they were men and women who were trained and lead by the communist party, and who belonged to an organization subordinated to the communist party.

How do you suppose me to answer this nonsence? Tell me one simple thing: were they military or civilian, and don't whistle into my ears. Any organisation was supposed to be subordinated to the communist party, it was written in Soviet constitution. Trained by communist party? Did they fight with folded issues of Pravda? Or they were trained in mysterious martial arts like lenin-do?

Standard "face the enemy" rhetoric: mix "communist party" into some nonsence and everybody believes it.

mrsid2 · « **Reply #47 on:** April 10, 2002, 11:32:55 AM »

Finnish concentration camps? We did have prison camps and people did die of starvation there, but not nearly as large percentage that never returned from russian prisons.

It's time to show up with some proof Boroda.

What about the russian concentration camps up in the siperia?
Only difference is that in those camps there were more russians than other nationalities. The politruks (party representators) could send any russian there with one letter. Just one careless word, critisising the party or life in russia. Conditions there guaranteed 80% casualty ratio if I recall correctly.

The soviet infiltrators were called desant's not partisans.
They were paramilitary infiltrators whose mission (if I understood correctly) was to spy behind enemy lines and sabotage. Sometimes they also did attack civillian villages, murdering the civillian population of the villages. Women, children, elderly people.

One civillian cottage counted a total of 50 bullet holes, all inside and naturally there were no survivors. Only a 4 year old child hidden outside witnessed the events.

Those warcrimes were too touchy issue to discuss untill recently. There are still men around with murdered families (while they were on the front themselves) that wouldn't hesitate a moment to kill any russian they met. I've seen them shake of hatred still, 60 years later when they talk about it.

But all this is in the past, both sides did bad things for sure.

Why should we continue the war on this BB?

Boroda · « **Reply #48 on:** April 10, 2002, 01:01:21 PM »

Mrsid, believe me or not, but now we have more people jailed then the whole USSR had in late-30s/early-40s,

while the population of Russian Federadion is much smaller...

I am not going to persuade anyone here, and don't like to flame with people I respect. How did the flame start? Some provcator said something about commies? As usual...

Now, last question for me to help understanding some things.

There probably were Soviet saboteurs on Finnish territory in WWII, as well as Finnish groups at Soviet territory - it was war. They could kill "civilians", it could happen from both sides, but Soviet side never raised this question, it was satisfied by Finnish handling the war criminals.

Now, the question itself: were Finnish militia (please, can you spell it for me, in Russian transcribtion it's "øþöêîð", "shutskor") considered civilians or military? It can explain a lot.

mipoikel · « **Reply #49 on:** April 10, 2002, 01:11:02 PM »

Well.. I am 99.9999% sure that finnish long range patrolmen or other military units did not kill any russian civilians during ww2.

Boroda · « **Reply #50 on:** April 10, 2002, 01:42:49 PM »

So am I about Soviet recon/diversionary units. So what?

As I told before - it's a question of faith, self-hypnosis, mental stability - call it whatever you want.

mipoikel · « **Reply #51 on:** April 10, 2002, 02:24:35 PM »

None of them.

Soviet people seems to be totally brainwashed and history has been written wrong... sad... but it is not your fault.

SageFIN · « **Reply #52 on:** April 10, 2002, 04:04:23 PM »

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Originally posted by mipoikel
Soviet people seems to be totally brainwashed and history has been written wrong... sad... but it is not your fault.

Brainwashing can go both ways. At least the Soviet propaganda was easily identifiable and thus was more easily discounted.

Wmaker · « **Reply #53 on:** April 10, 2002, 04:16:47 PM »

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Originally posted by Boroda
It's all nothing more then fantasies of that "historian". Let's stick to the facts: USSR wanted to exchange Karelian Isthmus for the bigger territory in Karelia. When Finnish defence was broken - Finns agreed to that conitions, and Stalin stoped hostilities. He wasn't a stupid and didn't need the whole Finland.

Boroda it's just your words against a senior researcher, a doctor. You say "let's stick to the facts" and yet you don't provide any sources yourself to the discussion. Why do you expect anyone should believe you?? I've posted several quotes backing up my statements. Boroda, I challenge you to PROVE me wrong. I challenge you to find sourches that support your views. Obviously there isn't any since you do no effort to prove your points. Boroda, people don't believe this: "Of course it's true when I, Boroda, say it is. Everyone who thinks differently than me are wrong even if they have proof for their statements."

Some quotes:

"The deeds of the Finns during the Winter War gave others an example of how a people must fight for its independence."

Colonel General Dimitrij Volkogonov, February 1989

Why Soviet Colonel General says finns fought for their independence if what you say is true??

"The truth was on the side of the Finns when they heroically defended their freedom and their independence."

Historian Boris Sokolov, December 1989

See above.

"On November 30, 1939, it was Stalin's next move. 250,000 Russian troops under the cover of a coordinated air and artillery bombardment crossed into Finland to begin one of the least publicized and most costly campaigns in the annals of military history. It would be a "walk over;" General Meretskov estimated it would take only 10 to 12 days for his 26 well equipped 14,000 man divisions to reach Helsinki. Russian propaganda had been so convincing that it was felt that the Finns would be waving flags and welcoming the Red Army with open arms. Opposing him were nine poorly equipped 11,000-man Finnish divisions.

Meretskov never suspected that his army was about to plunge into a frozen hell, the second coldest winter since 1828, and oppose Mannerheim, probably one of the greatest defensive tacticians since Robert E. Lee. So confident were the Soviets of a quick victory march to Helsinki that they came with parade bands, but without winter uniforms, without supplies for a protracted campaign and without medical services. Even more sinister was the fact that Stalin had purged most of his regular army officers two years earlier and placed most of the responsibility for the army in the hands of political commissars."

Robert K. Maddock. jr

Source: http://www.kaiku.com/winterwar.html

Another site:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/3818/FINNLIV.HTM

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Originally posted by Boroda
Your wartime government was stupid enough to kill thousands of it's citizens in a futile effort to stop inevitable. That speech by Cajander is a typical example of political hypocricy, chest-banging and obvious lies.

Well, your wartime "government" was stupid enough to kill millions of its citizens just because they didn't fit the picture. I don't think I even need to go to the chest-banging and obvious lies...

Finnish government did great job with the Finnsh Army in keeping Finland independent. Until you prove what you are saying you are just throwing insults at Finland.

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Originally posted by Boroda
I think you missed my discussion with Staga about Finnish concentration camps in Karelia. I quoted Finnish sources translated to Russian. My biggest problem is that I can't even spell the names of Finnish researches in Latin And I hope that you will admit that Finns didn't stop at the old border. Again, what was the Finnish name for Petrozavodsk?

With a word "concetration camp" I understand something what was done in Germany during WWII. Concetration camp is a place where people are systematically exterminated. Sure there were prison camps in Finland just like in any country in a war during WWII but they had nothing to do with concetration camps.

Of course I admit that finns didn't stop at the old boarder because they didn't. I have no need to lie here. I'm here for the truth. Finland didn't have much choise but to cross the boarder because of the pressure from the germans. The fact that Finland didn't stop at the old boarder was one of the biggest reason why Finland managed to prolong the Soviet Great Attack enough in the end of The Continuation War.

Petrozavodsk probably means Petroskoi in finnish. Finns named Petroskoi as Äänislinna during the The Continuation War.

palef · « **Reply #54 on:** April 10, 2002, 05:26:38 PM »

The first use of Concentration camps as we understand them, was made by the Brits in South Africa during the Boer war at the end of the 19th/beginning of the 20th century.

The "Swastika" thing is starting to get up my nose. This symbol appears in many cultures, mostly as a symbol of some sort of positive energy or luck. It shows up reversed in many Amerindian societies too.

Some people go too far with some concepts and Nazi Germany (note Nazi - and not everybody in Germany followed Nazi ideology to it's fullest during the 1930s & '40s) was one of them.

No matter how you look at it some people are always going to suck at belonging to the "Human" species, most often due to ignorance and bigotry.

Me, I don't care, so long as I have coffee, and people don't poke me with sharp sticks on to regular a basis.

palef.

mipoikel · « **Reply #55 on:** April 10, 2002, 05:41:06 PM »

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Originally posted by SageFIN

Brainwashing can go both ways. At least the Soviet propaganda was easily identifiable and thus was more easily discounted.

And how do you think we have been brainwashed? Who did it? What WMaker writes is pure fact. You have all same resources available than others. Just read and learn. Ofcourse we have here in finland some people who believed what was told us from east. Are you one of them?

Wake up...

SageFIN · « **Reply #56 on:** April 11, 2002, 02:23:01 AM »

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Originally posted by mipoikel
And how do you think we have been brainwashed? Who did it? What WMaker writes is pure fact. You have all same resources available than others. Just read and learn.

I have done so already.

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Originally posted by mipoikel Ofcourse we have here in finland some people who believed what was told us from east. Are you one of them? Wake up...

You have it backwards. I don't believe what was told from the east, as I don't blindly believe anything regardless of the origin. I do agree that Finland's independence was obviously at stake.

Also, you might want to note, that I said "can go", by which I imply that there has not necessarily been brainwashing in Finland. However, I also meant that had there been, and had it been subtle enough, how would we know it.

The point I was trying to make was that adopting a "holier than thou" attitude when dealing with Finn-Soviet issues isn't going to help one bit.