Originally posted by -lynx-
Boroda - drop it, it's hopeless. A year or so ago we had this discussion, I posted sources/links (Finnish) to show exactly where Finland stood at the end of Winter War - no joy. In the end I just gave up - why bother arguing with people who are too brainwashed to understand facts?
Sage - my hat off to you. I could never figure out how nationalistic bravado, stupid lies and "interpretation of events" can serve to show respect to incredible skill and bravery Finnish soldiers and pilots showed defending their country against hopeless odds.
lynx, you posted insults about finns comitting war crimes in Karelia. Just insults with no facts to back up your words. You still have nothing to prove your words.
I know exactly where Finland stood in the end of the Winter War.
I posted quotes from russian historian and a colonel. Both say Finland was fighting for its
independence. It's obviously easier just to ingnore those words and resort to calling me brainwashed instead.
I have never said that if the Winter War would have prolonged that Soviet Union would not have been able to occupy Finland. What I said was that Stalin had a plan to occupy Finland quickly and when it didn't work he settled for Karelia and other regions.
Here's a quote of what I mean:
"Four months later, after the hardest fighting seen in Europe since the first World War and massive Soviet reinforcements, Finland's lines remained unbroken, while the Red Army had lost up to 400.000 soldiers in casualties. Finland's soldiers were now down to their last bullets, but Stalin did not know that, and he was running out of time. With the spring thaws approaching, his forces risked becoming bogged down in the extensive wetland forests along the front, while politically every week lost increased his humiliation and vulnerability vis a vis a vengeful Japan in the Far East, an ambitious Hitler in the west, and a Britain and France that were considering intervention on Finland's side.
In early March Stalin conceded defeat, abandoning his occupation plans and settling for a compromise agreement, leaving Finland independent. With the signing of the Peace Agreement on 13 March Finland had to cede 10 % of her territory to the USSR, but Finland herself remained free."
Written for Virtual Finland by Dr. Tomas Ries, senior researcher -
National Defence College - Finland
Source:
http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/war1.htmlWhat makes you any more qualified to call me brainwashed than me calling you??
Originally posted by Boroda
Lynx, I understand it. I'll say it isn't "brainwashing". It's self-hypnosis. It's much easier to believe that Finns could win and stop Red Army. And I understand it and will not blame any Finn for thinking this way. I only don't like that as usually they hang all dogs on evil Russians. USSR stated it's suggestions to Finland, and it could even be called a fair exchange. Border had to be moved from Leningrad, and in summer, 1941, it saved the city, when Finns suddenly became allies of the nazis. Unfortunately for both countries - reasonable people in Finnish government were in minority...
Finns showed extraordinary heroism, and noone doubts it here in Russia.
Boroda you too?? I was expecting more of you than this "self-hypnosis-thing". You too just ignore all the information that I posted and go personal?? If I didn't know better I'd say you are running out of ammo.
I never ever said that Finland won that war! Finland
LOST that war. I have
never said otherwise. What I said was that USSR couldn't occupy Finland the way Stalin had planned and because it didn't happen Stalin signed the peace treaty.
USSR started that war. If Finland would now start making regional demands at Russia would Russia just hand land over to Finland?!? Finland was the bad boy for not handing over its lands without a fight?!? There was nothing fair to that exchange and its sole purpose was occupation. If Finland would have agreed on it she would have ended up just like the Baltic countries!!
Well, considering who was running your country at the time I find this "unreasonable government-thing" very funny. Personally I think our war-time government was great and was a big factor in keeping my country independent.
Originally posted by Boroda
Maybe they stoped only on Karelian Isthmus, or you think that ethnic Russians living in Karelia simply invited Finns and asked to place them in concentration camps?
Hmm... this is interesting. Problem is that you don't have any proof this because what you say here never took place. Soviet propaganda all the way. As you asked me...any proof...web-sites, quotes...anything? Hmm....I thought so.
Originally posted by Boroda
Great Britain is in war against democratic Finland with dictatorship (The Soviet Union)!
It's definetly a joke of the month!
Great Britain did declare war (allthough a formal war...only on paper...if we don't count for few incidents in the northern Finland) against Finland, you really didn't know this Boroda?!? About the dictatorship AFAIK Stalin was more or less a dictator, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Originally posted by Boroda
Hitler visits Finland and greets Mannerheim on his 75th birthday 4.6.1944
Great Britain should have joined this democratic leaders against the evil dictatorship! And poor Brits were on the wrong side all the way!
Hitler did indeed visit Mannerheim on his birthday. I don't remember the exact date or was it 75th birthday or not but otherwise that's true. I don't quite understand what you mean here.
Originally posted by Boroda
9.6.1944 Russians begin major attack on Karelian Isthmus. Vyborg is lost. Germans send weapon help to Finland. Finnish troops repel the Russian on Tali and Ihantala. Russians can`t occupy Finland. Finland and the Soviet Union make peace 19.9.1944.
No doubt that if Mannerheim decided not to stop at the old border - Russians should have run to the Pacific coast.
Soviets, begun their major attack 9.6.1944 on Karelian Isthmus. Finns lost Vyborg. Germans did send weapon help to Finland. Finnsh troops did repel the Soviet attack on Tali and Ihantala. Russians couldn't occupy Finland in the pace they had planned and turn their intrest on Berlin. Finland and Soviet Union did sign a peace treaty on 19.9.1944.
That's all true.
I don't understand your reply at all here. It does not make sense aat all.
Originally posted by Boroda
-Finland has to rent Porkkala to the Soviet Unions navalbase for 50 years.
How long did that 50 years last? Were you told at school that Nikita abandoned this base (BTW, a Russian Imperial Navy base, a part of a mine/artillery position protecting SPb from the sea) in the 50s?
Interesting... I never thought what happened to another rented base at Hanko (Gangut)... Will inquire, but looks like noone bothered to give it back.
Where did it say that Porkkala remained under soviets the whole 50 years? It said in the peace treaty that Finland has to rent Porkkala for 50 years.
Originally posted by Boroda
-Finland has to sentence War culprit.
-Finland has to stop "fascists and Hitler-favouring" organisations.
This is definetly the sadest part. Evil, evil Russians!
It is true that we had to find war culprits. Risto Ryti for example went to prison just because he was the president during the war and helped Finland remain independent.
Finland had to stop organisations like Lotta-Svärd and Suojeluskunta-organisation because of the pressure by the soviets. Finnish Air Force also had to give up Von Rosen Cross because of this.
Didn't read the page, just replied to the quotes you picked...don't know what else is there.
Boroda, you still gonna ignore my information and call me self-hypnotized?
