Interesting Gallup poll

[Udie]

Originally posted by fd ski
1) How did that boy end up in the US? Did his mother give her life in the attempt to escape from a communist dictatorship with her son?


Being an immigrant to USA myself, I'd hate to disappoint you, but 99% of people don't come here for democracy/freedom or any of those other lofty goals. They don't come here to "get away from the communist dictatorships". They come here for one thing:
- Oppurtunity to lead a decent life.

That lady took a 4 year old on a raft trip across the atlantic not so that he could be free. She took him there so that he could have ham on his sandwich, instead of just butter.

 So what is freedom to you?   How much opportunity did she/he have in communist cuba?  There's a Vietnamese store owner up the street from my office.  He knows why he came here in the early 70's.  To get away from murderous communist thugs and to come to the land of freedom and choice.   The things you discribe in your 2nd paragraph are freedoms, especially if they can't have it in communist cuba.  

 That whole incedent was (to me) one of the worst things the Clinton administration did in his petty 8 years in oriface.

[Elfenwolf]

Hail Udie, I disagree. The Elian Gonzalez fiasco was never about the opportunity offered here as opposed to the lack of opportunities he'll have in his native Cuba- it was about the boy's mother basically stealing him from his father, risking both their lives to come here and rather or not we had the right to circumvent the rights of Elian's father in the name of "having a better life."

If you're REALLY concerned about Elian Gonzalez or the millions of other Cuban children just like him having better opportunities for success then write to your elected officials and urge the abolition of our trade embargo against Cuba. After all, we're doing more to harm the average Cuban's economic potential than Castro is.

Now concerning the Vietnamese who escaped the Communists in 1973-1975- Good for them, I'm glad we got them out because most of those rescued were part of the South Vietnamese government and would have faced harsh reprisals for their "collaboration" with American forces during the War. That being said, we didn't do a damn thing for the average Vietnamese citizens but instead took the wealthier ones and relocated them here.

[Karnak]

Govenor Gray Davis has done more for me economically that President George Bush, and I still voted against him.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Elfenwolf
it was about the boy's mother basically stealing him from his father, risking both their lives to come here and rather or not we had the right to circumvent the rights of Elian's father in the name of "having a better life."

Cmone Elf...how can you post crap like that with a straight face?

What do you know about what happened on Cuba before the escape?

And I cannot understand how people defend the desicion to send the kid back to one of the last communist dictatorships in the world. I really cant. It is just plain wrong.

[Elfenwolf]

Heya Hort, It's not about the system of government, it's about the rules of law. Sometimes things that are lawful can be morally wrong, and sometimes things that are morally correct can be unlawful.

Look at this objectively- What would you rule in this case? Remember, the Castro regime is NOT on trial here. You are asked to judge this case on rather the biological father of Elian Gonzalez has custodial rights in spite of being a citizen of (shudder) Cuba, or if distant relatives Elian has never seen before have superior custodial rights based upon their residency in the USA.

It's presumptious to assume we can offer him a life so much better than what he could possibly have in Cuba to the point of negating the family bond and the rights of his father to be with Elian, and Elian to be with his father. Are we THAT much better? We can seperate children from their surviving parent in the name  of "A Better Life?"

Hortlund, you are a judge. How could you possibly make a ruling denying parental rights based upon the residency of the father... and keep a straight face?

[Wingnut_0]

Let's not stop there Hortlund....let's remove inner city kids cause they statistically are found wanting....hell let's get farmer's kids cause they may have to work long hours on the farm and that's not right!  

Once you open Pandora's box.............

[midnight Target]

Additionally, if we stopped this idiotic embargo against Cuba Elian would be a millionaire today. Check it Out

The Freedom Forum, a nonpartisan foundation dedicated to free press and free speech, presents the award annually along with $1 million. In Elian's case, the money could not be awarded because of the 40-year-old U.S. trade embargo against Cuba. Instead, it will go to help help needy refugee children living in the United States, Neuharth said.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Wingnut_0
Let's not stop there Hortlund....let's remove inner city kids cause they statistically are found wanting....hell let's get farmer's kids cause they may have to work long hours on the farm and that's not right!  

Once you open Pandora's box.............

Hmm..yes... so if I have understood your little "analogy" correctly here, it should be interpreted as "if you investigate accusations of abuse, you might as well remove inner city kids, and "get" farmers kids".

As I said..I guess we just see things differently.

In my country, the rights of the child supersedes the right for an abusive father/mother to be a parent.

[midnight Target]

1. A father's rights are not limited by his country of origin or residence.
2. Who exactly was doing the REAL abusing? A psychiatrist reported that it was the Miami relatives who were causing harm to the boy. Do you remember the videotape they made with little Elian stating that he wanted to stay, and obviously looking off camera for more cues on what to say.

Miami - April 18, 2000 - `This child ... continues to be horrendously exploited in this bizarre and destructive ambiance", this is what Dr. Irwin Redlener wrote to Attorney General Janet Reno and to Doris Meissner, who is the commissioner of INS.

[Elfenwolf]

Originally posted by Hortlund


In my country, the rights of the child supersedes the right for an abusive father/mother to be a parent.

We also are concerned with the welfare and safety of children. Getting away from Elian Gonzalez, however, (as there was no evidence of abuse, only an allegation from those Miami relatives who had a vested interest in keeping Elian) child abuse is at epidemic proportions here. I have a friend who is a social worker and she says they're forsed to allow many "marginally" neglected and abused children to remain in an unhealthy enviroment due to a lack of foster care.

Now how many consevatives would be willing to increase our social spending to help take care of these neglected and abused children? Not many I bet.

[weazel]

Your argument has a flaw Hortland, there has to be proof of abuse.

As a father who was accused of child abuse, molestation, and a number of vile things by a vindictive ex-wife I have to say.......hogwash.

Child protective services are staffed by some of the most inept people I've ever dealt with, unless proof of abuse is absolute a child belongs with his parents.

I had my life destroyed by baseless allegations and was looking at a prison sentence until I spent a boat load of money proving my innocence.

[Wingnut_0]

I re-read your statement several times and I have yet to figure out how u came up with the below text.  You apparently just made up some kind of answer cause you'd have to be .{deleted} to not get it.

Originally posted by Hortlund


Hmm..yes... so if I have understood your little "analogy" correctly here, it should be interpreted as "if you investigate accusations of abuse, you might as well remove inner city kids, and "get" farmers kids".

In my country, the rights of the child supersedes the right for an abusive father/mother to be a parent.

I again don't know how more plain I can make the language.......My analogy was in reference to YOUR apparent belief that a parents living space (country/city/ whatever u decide next) affects whether they should regain custody (minus abuse).

Oh we shouldn't send him back cause Cuba's a communist country....what would be the next precedence after that? inner city's...etc.

And you should be a US attorney cause your apparently good at talking in circles and never listening nor responding correctly to rebuttels....    Your 2nd statement refers to "abusive father/mother"  which to be "abusive" there has to be again some sort of evidence to back up any claims of abuse.  Who's the witnesses in that case making the claims?  People that live 90 miles away and haven't been around the party's involved in quite some time.  

Let me stress Hortlund that regardless of what your country holds as admissable...in the US no matter what state it's in allegations mean nothing and do not hold up in court without evidence (circumstantial or direct).  Your argueing a case based on rumor and speculation that does not hold up in court.