Author Topic: Realism versus gameplay (Read 854 times)

J_A_B · « **on:** April 08, 2002, 12:13:23 PM »

About the long range shooting in AH (800-plus yard hits)

Is it realism or gameplay you guys want? It IS realistic for these weapons to be able to get hits at 1000 yards and even kills, particularly in the case of 20mm's. In a game like AH where it's of little concern if we waste our ammo or die, people will tend to take shots at longer ranges than they would in the real deal.

Realism is what AH currently has, at least in the technical sense. However, is that what people want?

I came here from AirWarrior. In AW, the bullets disappeared at 800 yards. In addition, there was no hit notification (no hitsprites) at ranges greater than 650 yards and at greater range than 650 bullet effectiveness was severely reduced--so at 650-800, you COULD hit the enemy, but you'd hardly damage him and wouldn't know whether you hit him or not. The result was people rarely bothered to fire at more than 650 yards and couldn't hit you at more than 800. This was hardly realistic from a technical standpoint (real bullets don't just magically disappear), but in terms of gameplay people seemed to be more content with it than with AH's full-realism gunnery. I certainly never saw anyone asking for gunnery range to be increased to 1K-plus

It can be argued that because there's (rightly) no fear of death/dying, the realistic aspects of the gunnery model are causing extremely UNrealistic side-effects in Aces High. It's possible that the artificial "gameplay" concessions can actually cause the game to become more realistic in practice, not less so.

So, what does the AH player base want? Consider this post to be an opinion poll, all opinions welcome

Count me as "undecided"--I see advantages to both systems and I can't really make up my mind as to which course is better.

J_A_B

Wilbus · « **Reply #1 on:** April 08, 2002, 12:32:14 PM »

Think I'll join you in the "undecided" group, like you said, almost noone fired at 800 yards and above, most people fired bellow 300, most german aces prefered bellow 150 or so.

There ARE lots of 800-1000 yard kills in AH, just a few days ago, my brother took hits from the rear guns of a B17 at 2.0 icon range (2000 yards), I think net lag had ALOT to do with that one though but it is not unusual to get hits up to 1.5k with buff guns.

In form of getting the firing ranges more real life as it was and still is during air combat, it would be better to turn long range shots "off" however I don't know if I'd like this, I don't fire at more then 500 unless I just try to scare so wouldn't matter to my gunnery much.

Just don't know...

Tac · « **Reply #2 on:** April 08, 2002, 12:42:46 PM »

Its not the guns, its the laser range finder icon.

IMO, there should be no rangefinder below 2k distance. It should be replaced by a "+" or "-" to signify you are gaining on it (+) or losing ground (-).

Try turning your enemy icons off when you are about to attack a buff. You will notice your aim will be waay off when you guess range. Also, when deflection shooting a con, even if he's inside d1.0, if you have no icons, chances are you will miss constantly. Why? Because people dont WATCH the plane, they watch the icon and glance at the plane to see where its manouvering towards. The major and only image used to decide how much lead to put is the rangefinder.

Without the laser range finder you have to get in CLOSE, inside d200 and at a good firing position or you will miss completely. I find THAT to be very realistic. I LOVE iconless fights, there's no sniping, very little HO's, ACM is intense as you lose sight of your opponent and he of you.. and you end up in a series of engage/disengage to reacquire visual... and of course, the BOUNCE is there!

Puck · « **Reply #3 on:** April 08, 2002, 12:54:16 PM »

Bomber guns were harmonized at 1000 yards, or at least that's what my father's old flexable gunnery manual tells me.

As for the 2.0 buff kill, I routinly make tail gun kills at 1000 yards. How many pilots in WWII gave the tail gunner a straight, level, zero deflection shot from 3000 yards away. It's not like you don't have TIME to line up while they inch closer.

If you have an unloaded, non maneuvering target the 1000+ yard kill is reasonable. If people want to spray and pray, it's their hop, let 'em fly it however they want. I'd rather get pinged from 1000 yards out that have someone arbitrarily decide bullets only fly so far.

I flew AW once or twice; it was too much like an arcade game for my taste. Give me the realistic model used unrealistically every time.

JMHO. HTH. HAND.

Wilbus · « **Reply #4 on:** April 08, 2002, 12:58:57 PM »

Agree to 100% with Tac.

Maverick · « **Reply #5 on:** April 08, 2002, 01:31:41 PM »

There are numerous pilot anecdotes regarding range both for short and long range gunnery in RL.

The fact that the guns are enabled out to the ranges they are is a simple acknowledgement of how they were in the real conflict. They WILL reach out that far. If a player wants to take advantage of it, that is and should be their option. It should not be the option of the targeted player to deny that to the shooting player.

I have seen the whine about the range icon. Frankly it doesn't hold water for long range gunnery without a lead computing gunsite. If the gunsight did the computations for lead THEN that would be a valid complaint vs having to depend on depth perception in the real world. A long range hit on a moving target (jinking and so on), is a matter of guessing the hold over and lead for directional transition. In other words a good deal of luck.

Using a 2 dimensional screen to depict a 3 dimensional world is not conducive to range estimation. Now if the sight were calibrated, like they had in the real world, where you could set the retical for a specific range and wingspan do determine ranges you might be able to judge the range without an icon. Given the variety of monitor screen size, image quality, dot pitch, vid card capability etc. that the player base has, a true calibrated gunsite is not a feasable option.

But then it's more fun to just complain about "spray and pray" tactics in a GAME than to just acknowlege someone was luckier or better at the GAME that the target was.

This expired horse has been thoroughly pounded below ground level several times.

Puck · « **Reply #6 on:** April 08, 2002, 01:35:33 PM »

Iconless MA; now THAT could get interesting.

TAC, is it really nessisary to get in that close, or is it nessisary to be able to judge distance by size? It seems to me (and this could be way off base) that the only difference is the need to judge distance accuratly?

The other question comes in the form of enemy recognition. Since any country can fly any A/C how to you separate the good guys from the bad? It would be awfully easy, with no icons, to loose track in a furball and start pinging a friendly.

If you had icons sans range you would solve the ID problem, but you'd still eliminate the bounce with that huge neon sign over your aircraft. The alternative is to only have icons over friendly aircraft, however:

The last point I'll ask here is we're on computers, and aircraft are rendered in finite sized pixels. That could really mess up closure and range interpretation at long and medium range; there's no way to look at shape/dihedral/markings when your opponent is only three pixels in size.

It's a neat idea, but I don't think you'll ever see it in the main arena. I don't think it would be a sound business decision. Maybe set up an 'enhanced realism' area with friendly-only icons (still no range info)? Would such an area get many users?

CavemanJ · « **Reply #7 on:** April 08, 2002, 01:49:58 PM »

IIRC the longest range kill recorded with .50s was 1600yds, by an F-86 with an LCOS. So the .50s are lethal to that range (even though they seem to disappear ta 1500? or is that just where the tracers stop drawing?)

I like the idea of no hit sprites showing over a certain range.

Puck 'The Bounce' is alive and well in AH. I've gotten many perfect bounces. It's a matter of making your approach in the blind spots. If a person can't see your actualy aircraft that person can't see your icon either. Just last night I got 2 perfect bounces inside of 5minutes of each other. Dropped on an f4u from right above him (think he just wasn't paying attention). Came off the f4u grabbing alt, spotted a dot lower to the east and put my nose down. By the time I was in icon range I at his low 6 and closing fast. Came up and shredded the belly of his pony.

Hortlund · « **Reply #8 on:** April 08, 2002, 01:54:10 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Puck
Iconless MA; now THAT could get interesting.

Yeah..combined with killshooter it would be just about as fun as whacking yourself repeatedly in the groin with a hammer.

Tac · « **Reply #9 on:** April 08, 2002, 03:50:41 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Puck
Iconless MA; now THAT could get interesting.

TAC, is it really nessisary to get in that close, or is it nessisary to be able to judge distance by size? It seems to me (and this could be way off base) that the only difference is the need to judge distance accuratly?

Plane size in AH is almost the same fro d0 to d50, from d50 to d100 , from d100 to about d200, then from d200 to d400'ish. When I fly iconless and get on a con's 6 I just cant take the d500 shots im very used to taking with icons off.. because I miss. And I miss because I shoot thinking its at around d450 or so and in reality its d560 or d350! In short, I have to get a CLEAN 6 shot or be firing from a damn good angle to hit them. I find this to be far more immersive than simply relying on a perfect ranger to tell me exactly the lead I have to give to shoot something.

Quote

Originally posted by Puck

The other question comes in the form of enemy recognition. Since any country can fly any A/C how to you separate the good guys from the bad? It would be awfully easy, with no icons, to loose track in a furball and start pinging a friendly.

I said no laser ranger. the ID icon could stay. If it was up to me, id have it with friendly icons only, but i guess most people need the neon billboard.

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #10 on:** April 08, 2002, 04:04:37 PM »

I like the no hit sprites after a certain distance idea. It has the capability of reducing spray-and-pray without neutering the guns. A realistic solution to the problem.

mipoikel · « **Reply #11 on:** April 08, 2002, 04:35:49 PM »

Maybe not iconless but if there is just icon without distance?? Solution?? Would be fun to try..

Kieran · « **Reply #12 on:** April 08, 2002, 04:39:13 PM »

You know we have limited icons in the CT, right? Try it out and see what you think.

Wilbus · « **Reply #13 on:** April 08, 2002, 04:43:14 PM »

Iconsless (friendly icons only) would be the best way IMO but would be pretty bad for newbies. Just get rid of the laser range icon range bellow 2000 yards and I'll be afairly happy man

mipoikel · « **Reply #14 on:** April 08, 2002, 04:45:21 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kieran
You know we have limited icons in the CT, right? Try it out and see what you think.

Yes I know there is limited icons but they are not limited the way I suggested. In CT icons pop up in shorter distance right? I think it could show up like it does in MA (6.0) but it dont show distance at all.