Author Topic: Kennedy shows on history chanel  (Read 1295 times)

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2002, 04:33:28 PM »
Well how about an experimental bullet fired to duplicate the "pristine bullet's" path? Wouldn't that be more convincing than speculation on a bullets deformation when entering Bambi?

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When a bullet just like Commission Exhibit 399 is fired through a human wrist bone at 2,000 feed per second, it is almost certain to be badly mangled. But when CE 399 hit Connally's wrist it had been slowed by transiting Kennedy's torso and tumbling through Connally's chest. When it finally hit the hard radius bone, it was traveling about 1,000 feet per second. Dr. Martin Fackler, President of the International Wound Ballistics Association, fired a round identical to Oswald's bullet through a human wrist at 1,100 feet per second.


Here is a picture of that bullet...look familiar?

Offline Samm

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« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2002, 05:41:12 PM »
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When a bullet just like Commission Exhibit 399 is fired through a human wrist bone at 2,000 feed per second, it is almost certain to be badly mangled. [/b]


Well that's how fast it was going when it went through JFK's bones .

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2002, 05:56:28 PM »
Here is a link to a complete test of a bullet duplicating the entire path of CE399.


And here is a picture of the test bullet compared to CE399.

Offline Samm

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« Reply #48 on: April 16, 2002, 06:34:28 PM »
There was also a test firing the same type bullet from the same type rifle through a goat rib and a human wrist which produced a visibly more damaged bullet than the one that supposedly went through a skull, vertebrea, rib, and wrist .

I think everyone in this thread, even midnight target is in agreement that the wounds of the two men were clearly caused by more than one bullet .

 So.. the question is, what was their motive for fabricating the single bullet story ? Why the deception ?

Offline Samm

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« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2002, 06:35:43 PM »
Oh and what was Bill Gates arrested for ?

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2002, 06:41:26 PM »
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I think everyone in this thread, even midnight target is in agreement that the wounds of the two men were clearly caused by more than one bullet .


No, I think 1 bullet went through Kennedy's neck and into Connelly.

The Bill Gates picture was from an unknown arrest. Probably sealed juvenile records.

Offline streakeagle

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« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2002, 10:43:21 PM »
FBI agents, well trained and well-practiced could not match Oswald's rate of fire with the same type of rifle... not even close.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2002, 11:00:29 PM »
It was Colonel Mustard, in the Library with the Candlestick.

;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2002, 10:27:12 AM »
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Originally posted by streakeagle
FBI agents, well trained and well-practiced could not match Oswald's rate of fire with the same type of rifle... not even close.


Not true again!

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FBI weapons expert Robert Frazier got off three accurate shots with Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle in 4.5 seconds -- recycling the mechanism and reaiming the rifle twice.


Various estimates range from a low of 6 seconds to about 8.5 seconds for the actual 3 shots.

Oswald remains the most logical suspect.

Offline -dead-

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« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2002, 11:01:41 PM »
Long as we're trying to be accurate -

Frazier got a 5 inch spread at a range of 25 yds in 4.6 seconds. Which Frazier says later on it was a 3 inch spread (mebbe a typo somewhere) - and that that would translate to a 12 inch spread at 100 yds. Not exactly what I'd call accurate ... but hey.

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Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe for the record the dispersion on the two series?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. The first series of three shots were approximately--from 4 to 5 inches high and from 1 to 2 inches to the right of the aiming point, and landed within a 2-inch circle. These three shots were fired in 4.8 seconds. The second series of shots landed--one was about 1 inch high, and the other two about 4 or 5 inches high, and the maximum spread was 5 inches.
That series was fired in 4.6 seconds.


Very nice. And fairly useless. The real shooting was 175-265 ft on a target moving at about 11 mph. - approximately 88 yds maximum range. So what about doing some tests at that range?

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Mr. EISENBERG. And you performed one more test, I believe?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. We fired additional targets at 100 yards on the range at Quantico, Va., firing groups of three shots. And I have the four targets we fired here.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like these admitted as 551, 552, 553, and 554.
Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. (The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 551 through 554, and received in evidence.)
Mr. EISENBERG. Who fired these shots, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. FRAZIER. I fired them.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you characterize the dispersion on each of the four targets?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. On Commission Exhibit 551 the three shots landed approximately 5 inches high and within a 3 1/2-inch circle, almost on a line horizontally across the target. This target and the other targets were fired on March 16, 1964 at Quantico, Va. These three shots were fired in 5.9 seconds.
The second target fired is Commission Exhibit 552, consisting of three shots fired in 6.2 seconds, which landed in approximately a 4 1/2 to 5-inch circle located 4 inches high and 3 or 4 inches to the right of the aiming point.
Commission Exhibit No. 553 is the third target fired, consisting of three shots which landed in a 3-inch circle located about 2 1/2 inches high and 2 inches to the right of the aiming point.
These three shots were fired in 5.6 seconds.
And Commission Exhibit No. 554, consisting of three shots fired in 6.5 seconds, which landed approximately 5 inches high and 5 inches to the right of the aiming point, all within a 3 1/2-inch circle.
Mr. McCLOY. The first one is not exactly 5 inches to the right, is it?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. The center of the circle in which they all landed would be about 5 inches high and 5 inches to the right.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, could you tell us why, in your opinion, all the shots, virtually all the shots, are grouped high and to the right of the aiming point?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. When we attempted to sight in this rifle at Quantico, we found that the elevation adjustment in the telescopic sight was not sufficient to bring the point of impact to the aiming point. In attempting to adjust and sight-in the rifle, every time we changed the adjusting screws to move the crosshairs in the telescopic sight in one direction-it also affected the movement of the impact or the point of impact in the other direction. That is, if we moved the crosshairs in the telescope to the left it would also affect the elevation setting of the telescope. And when we had sighted-in the rifle approximately, we fired several shots and found that the shots were not all landing in the same place, but were gradually moving away from the point of impact. This was apparently due to the construction of the telescope, which apparently did not stabilize itself--that is, the spring mounting in the crosshair ring did not stabilize until we had fired five or six shots.


Hmm seems like 5.6 seconds is the best they can do at 100 yds on a static target, if they want it accurate.
So how about moving targets?

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Mr. EISENBERG. Based on your experience with the weapon, do you think three shots could be fired accurately within 5 1/2 seconds if no rest was utilized?
Mr. FRAZIER. That would depend on the accuracy which was necessary or needed-or which you desired. I think you could fire the shots in that length of time, but whether you could place them, say, in a 3- or 4-inch circle without either resting or possibly using the sling as a support--I doubt that you could accomplish that.
Mr. EISENBERG. How--these targets at which you fired stationary at 100 yards--how do you think your time would have been affected by use of a moving target?
Mr. FRAZIER. It would have slowed down the shooting. It would have lengthened the time to the extent of allowing the crosshairs to pass over the moving target.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give an amount?
Mr. FRAZIER. Approximately 1 second. It would depend on how fast the target was moving, and whether it was moving away from you or towards you or at right angles.
Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think you could shorten your time with further practice with the weapon?
Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us an estimate on that?
Mr. FRAZIER. I fired three shots in 4.6 seconds at 25 yards with approximately a 3-inch spread, which is the equivalent of a 12-inch spread at a hundred yards. And I feel that a 12-inch relative circle could be reduced to 6 inches or even less with considerable practice with the weapon.
Mr. EISENBERG. That is in the 4.6-second time?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. I would say from 4.8 to 5 seconds, in that area 4.6 is firing this weapon as fast as the bolt can be operated, I think.


Well based on the 25yds test... time would be round about 5.6
secs - (4.6 + 1 sec for moving targets) which is slower than Oswald supposedly did it. Based on the 100 yds test it'd be 6.6 secs.

This is all a question of minor details, though - my main problem with Oswald as the lone nutter with a gun theory is: if there's nothing to hide, why all the secrecy over the years?
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Offline streakeagle

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« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2002, 01:15:18 AM »
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Over the years, many high-ranking officials have come forward to
support Garrison's theory. "The big story in the Kennedy assassination
is the cover-up," says retired Colonel L. Fletcher Prouty, Chief of
Special Operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff until 1964. Prouty
was on assignment in New Zealand on the day of the assassination.
After carrying a New Zealand newspaper article back to Washington, he
checked the time of Oswald's arrest against the hour the paper had
been printed and, with great horror, realized Oswald's biography had
gone out on the international newswire before Oswald had been arrested
by the Dallas police. Prouty has since become one of the most
persuasive and persistent critics of the Warren Commission.
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Could the Mafia have whisked Kennedy's body past the Texas
authorities and got it aboard Air Force One?" writes Garrison. "Could
the Mafia have placed in charge of the President's autopsy an army
general who was not a physician? Could the Mafia have arranged for
President Kennedy's brain to disappear from the National Archives?
I love the whole story behind the Zapruder film:
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The most important and lasting piece of evidence unveiled by Garrison
was an 8mm film of the assassination taken by Abraham Zapruder, a film
that only three members of the Warren Commission had seen, probably
because it cast a long shadow of doubt across their conclusions. A
good analysis of the film can be found in Cover-Up by J. Gary Shaw
with Larry Harris (PO Box 722, Cleburne, TX 76031):

Had the Zapruder film of the JFK assassination been shown on national
television Friday evening, November 22, 1963, the Oswald/lone assassin
fabrication would have been unacceptable to a majority of
Americans...The car proceeds down Elm and briefly disappears behind a
sign. When it emerges the President has obviously been shot...Governor
Connally turns completely to the right, looking into the back seat; he
begins to turn back when his body stiffens on impact of a bullet. Very
shortly after Connally is hit, the President's head explodes in a
shower of blood and brain matter - he is driven violently backward at
a speed estimated at 80-100 feet per second.

Although Time, Inc. could have made a small fortune distributing this
film around the world, they instead secured the rights from Zapruder
for $225,000, then held a few private screenings before locking the
film in a vault. It was shown to one newsman, Dan Rather, who then
described it on national television. Rather asserted that Kennedy's
head went "forward with considerable force" after the fatal head shot
(a statement that would have supported a hit from behind, from the
direction of the School Book Depository). Several months later, Rather
was promoted to White House Correspondent by CBS. As if to buttress
this fabrication, the FBI reversed the order of the frames when
printing them in the Warren Report. When researchers later drew this
reversal to the FBI's attention, Hoover attributed the switch to a
"printing error."

« Last Edit: April 18, 2002, 01:22:41 AM by streakeagle »
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