Author Topic: AH Gunnery compared to WW2 gun camera footage  (Read 901 times)

Offline BenDover

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AH Gunnery compared to WW2 gun camera footage
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2002, 05:06:33 PM »
not really relevant, but it looks cool

« Last Edit: April 18, 2002, 05:11:33 PM by BenDover »

Offline BGBMAW

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AH Gunnery compared to WW2 gun camera footage
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2002, 05:29:58 PM »
Ben that  is sweet ..where is that from?

BGBMAW

Offline Puck

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AH Gunnery compared to WW2 gun camera footage
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2002, 05:43:36 PM »
I just ordered "Gun Camera Footage from WWII" from Amazon.  Ships in 1-3 weeks, $20US.
//c coad  c coad run  run coad run
main (){char _[]={"S~||(iuv{nkx%K9Y$hzhhd\x0c"},__
,___=1;for(__=___>>___;__<((___<<___<<___<<___<<___
)+(___<<___<<___<<___)-___);__+=___)putchar((_[__
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Offline Kweassa

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AH Gunnery compared to WW2 gun camera footage
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2002, 10:16:28 PM »
Quote
What comes to IL-2 gunnery, I can't really say anything about that since it's very hard to aim playing it.

The plane feels like you're balancing it on a ball bearing, any small adjustment tips the nose off track.. It only starts flying straight again if there's no control input at all. Only way to get a proper solution there seems to be hands off stick and hope the paths cross somewhere lol.

I don't know if that's realistic - I've heard that the fighter planes flew very steady and did not have the AoA wave all over the horizon after a small stick input.


 They changed this in recent 1.04 patch. The 'nose bouncing' problems were caused from incorrect depiction of trim attitudes. Now, all planes in IL-2 are a better and stable gun platforms.  At least the nose jerking up down up down difficulties are gone (But it still is hard to aim :) )

 One funny thing is, though AH claims they don't use a 'hit box', it damn sure feels like there is one. I don't think I've ever seen something like two tracer lines, each passing the starboard and port side of the target plane's fuselage merely inches away. In IL-2, I see these things happening when you shoot at a target too close, but have your guns converged for further off. I see tracer lines passing very close to the aircraft, looking as if they almost grazed the paint job, but still a miss. Those cases which normally in AH I would see hit sprites lighting up, is a definate miss in IL-2.  

 The IL-2 community has its own batch of 'experienced pilots', too. But these guys, unlike the experienced pilots of AH, no matter how skilled they are, rarely can hit something outside 200 meters if it is moving around. The "more experience in gunnery than real life pilots" argument doesn't seem much valid when this little compariosn kicks into action.

 Also, there are range indicators and icons in IL-2, too. Range indicators don't help people shoot at a 400 meter target in IL-2. It certainly doesn't help with me too, since the terrible gunner I am, I prefer to shoot at literally point blank range anyway. (The longest shot I ever confirmed I hit something was about 270 meters. Guns were converged at 150 meters, the target La-5FN was running away straight and level. Took a carfeful aim with maximum zoom on, plane trimmed out perfectly, and let go a 4 second stream with MG131s and saw metal scraps fall off)
 
 Maybe it's the combat trims, or maybe it's the more stablility in the FM.. or maybe it's the difference between modelling trajectories of bullets... or.. maybe it's the damage modelling that makes AH gunnery so different from IL-2. One thing I am certain, IL-2 gunnery makes more sense to me. AH is not bad, but in the aspect of gunnery... simply, IL-2 is better.

Offline Masherbrum

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AH Gunnery compared to WW2 gun camera footage
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2002, 08:00:28 AM »
I wouldn't want to be in these planes for real, it wouldn't be fun at all.  Sure it's easy with a joystick, but when hot lead is whizzing by you.  I think some TP would be needed upon landing.  

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Offline Toad

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AH Gunnery compared to WW2 gun camera footage
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2002, 10:15:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
The IL-2 community has its own batch of 'experienced pilots', too. But these guys, unlike the experienced pilots of AH, no matter how skilled they are, rarely can hit something outside 200 meters if it is moving around. The "more experience in gunnery than real life pilots" argument doesn't seem much valid when this little compariosn kicks into action...

...AH is not bad, but in the aspect of gunnery... simply, IL-2 is better.


I'll play the Devil's Advocate here. :)

If "highly experienced virtual game pilots"

1. Don't get any better as they practice more

2. Can't regularly hit anything outside of 200 meters

3. Already have probably fired literally millions more rounds at "moving targets" than the quickly trained pilots of WW2.....

then it may not be the "experience" argument at all. It may be that the gunnery model isn't that true to life.

I know you hate to hear that, but it is nevertheless a possibility. A possibility just as likely as your assumption, IMO. :)

200 meters is 656 feet. The MV of the .50 is ~2850 fps so time of flight is something like .2 of a second. Assume both aircraft are about the same speed so that relative velocity is essentially the same. No one is going to maneuver a WW2 fighter very far in .2 of a second.

Just something to consider. I think the millions of rounds of practice make a BIG difference, BTW. I consider myself a fairly decent hand with a shotgun on skeet or trap.. I may even fire one or two thousand rounds a year (some years) at clay targets or game. When I go up against guys that fire a few thousand rounds at clay every weekend... I get slaughtered. Go figure.


Lastly, your final sentence as quoted above appears to be nothing more than opinion.

Do you have anything to base it on? Flown any piston engine WW2 era aircraft? Shot at much of anything? Shot machine guns at anything? Inquiring minds would like to know.  :)
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Offline TheOxman

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AH Gunnery compared to WW2 gun camera footage
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2002, 10:58:53 AM »
As far as the realism goes, it's kinda hard to be completely REAL. When i fly i got my comfortable leather chair, 12oz.beer,a pack of smokes,and a itch to kill. Thoses R/L rookie ,and perhaps veteran  pilots had knots in the stomachs, thier lifes on the line,and scared sh*tless. If you want to get real REAL i guess make it where your pilot has a .45 or 9mm, depending on what plane your flying. That way when you are out of ammo or getting shot down, you can pull open the canopy and shoot and the other plane in a last ditch effort.(or on the ground as well):D

Offline funkedup

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AH Gunnery compared to WW2 gun camera footage
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2002, 01:44:36 PM »
I must be crazy because I find gunnery in Il-2 to be very similar to AH.  The big difference is that it's much harder in Il-2 to see where your fire is going and to see if you are hitting or not.  After a dozen or so dogfights in Il-2 I found myself scoring in much the same manner as I do in AH.

Of course Il-2 has more eye candy for the bullets in flight and the damage to the enemy.  But I don't think the modeling of the bullet trajectories or hit detection is much different at all from AH.

Offline gofaster

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AH Gunnery compared to WW2 gun camera footage
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2002, 02:51:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Puck
I just ordered "Gun Camera Footage from WWII" from Amazon.  Ships in 1-3 weeks, $20US.


Then you probably read my review :)

I popped my copy into the VCR a couple of weeks ago, and then I was flipping through a magazine and saw an ad for Aces High, with a coupon for an extra week of free play online.  And now, here I am!

I wish I could find more of this sort of video...

Offline BenDover

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AH Gunnery compared to WW2 gun camera footage
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2002, 02:57:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BGBMAW
Ben that  is sweet ..where is that from?

BGBMAW


found it when searching for 'ww2 gun cam' with yahoo


but look how easy that zero catches fire!!

one thing i hate about gun cam clips you find thou, it never tells you the plane thats firing

Offline gofaster

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Re: AH Gunnery compared to WW2 gun camera footage
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2002, 03:06:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Naudet
OK i got a nice video of the FW190, ad there was lots of gun camera footage from WW2. The gun camera was both from axis and allied birds.


What was the title of this film, where did you get it, and can I buy one, too?

Quote
Originally posted by Naudet
And what i asked my self when looking at the film was: "Hey those real fighter jockeys really suck at shooting"


That's because they had to deal with tougher physics than we do :)

Quote
Originally posted by Naudet
There were couple of instances, were the chasing fighter fired and fired for seconds while his traces passed behind the enemy all the time, and that at distances of 120 yrds or closer.


Sounds like hi-G shooting to me, where both planes are turning so hard that the bullets are going out and dropping down below the nose of the airplane. Either that or he burned out the gun barrels with all of the continuous firing and the bullets were getting mis-shapen into hunks of slag lead.

Quote
Originally posted by Naudet
What is the reason for this huge discrepancy to AH, here we usually fire up to 400 yrds without a problem and the average pilots hit % is around 5-7%. Which is about 2-3 times as high as that in WW2 (according to a LW examination, were the average pilot hit % was just 2% against buffs).


AH has good physics, probably the best on the market, but it still ain't reality (thankfully).  And we also don't have to deal with gun jams, either!

Quote
Originally posted by Naudet
And another notable thing was, that you could ony see hits fro cannons, cause they had explosive ordance. They gave hits similar to our hit sprites.
If a US fighter used his 0.5 cal, you could only see the tracers and than suddenly a part would come of its target or it starts smoking. But you never saw the actual hits.


It depends on what's loaded in the gun.  Tracer rounds didn't spark on impact, but armour-piercing-incindiary (API) did.  Plenty of Allied planes used the API later in the war.

Quote
Originally posted by Naudet
And what i would also like to see is the corkscrew shape of the tracers. Looks funny.


Some of that effect comes from the camera vibrating in the wing, and the wing vibrating on the fuselage, and the fuselage vibrating from the engine running and machine guns firing.  It seems like a lot of that was more prevalent in the early parts of the war than in the later parts, at least as far as US aircraft gun cameras are concerned.  In Germany, it may have been the opposite way as the war took its toll on resources.

Offline BenDover

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Re: Re: AH Gunnery compared to WW2 gun camera footage
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2002, 03:20:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by gofaster

AH has good physics, probably the best on the market, but it still ain't reality (thankfully). And we also don't have to deal with gun jams, either!


HTC.............;)

lets model this so s n p'ers don't take my tail off at 700+


:p

Offline gofaster

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AH Gunnery compared to WW2 gun camera footage
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2002, 03:28:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BenDover
not really relevant, but it looks cool



If I'm not mistaken, that clip is of a CFS2 Zero getting drilled by a P-38, right?

Offline Eagler

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AH Gunnery compared to WW2 gun camera footage
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2002, 03:29:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by gofaster
I wish I could find more of this sort of video...


http://www.accu-flight.com/freie_jagd.avi
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


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Offline BenDover

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AH Gunnery compared to WW2 gun camera footage
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2002, 03:59:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by gofaster


If I'm not mistaken, that clip is of a CFS2 Zero getting drilled by a P-38, right?


you are mistaken, that is real life gun cam

have a few more on my webspace, any1 want links?