Author Topic: Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides? (Read 769 times)

Kieran · « **Reply #15 on:** April 19, 2002, 11:57:50 AM »

Word, Rude. What I can see is a squad of 51's or 109's *cough*<13th TAS, Assassins>*cough* doing JUST that in order to drive the point home.

Look, I don't care if it's done or isn't. I just don't believe it is the panacea.

lazs2 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 19, 2002, 12:00:43 PM »

kieran... it would not be possible for them. I believe that is why they put up so much resitance to the idea.
lazs

Nifty · « **Reply #17 on:** April 19, 2002, 12:07:09 PM »

The range on the range channel isn't all that long, no need to increase it to encompass a whole area.

There would not need to be any coding on HTCs part to implement this. All you need is a terrain with rock walls (similar to wild wednesday) with extreme wind layers above the rock walls. If the maps were big enough, the walls really wouldn't come into play much.

The new strat concept of zones fits into this nicely, by the way.

The only problem is that with the areas and base captures, you can effectively lock out one country from an area. Would the "war" be won when one country is eliminated from an area? or would they be forced to fly solely in the other areas. Example, Bish and Rook capture all Knight fields in the late war areas. Knights can now only use the early and mid war areas or would the "war" be over?

I know Lazs doesn't care about field captures and strat but it is part of the game and it's not going away. Lazs, how does your Area Arena handle the strat variables and the progression of the virtual "war"?

touchy · « **Reply #18 on:** April 19, 2002, 01:19:15 PM »

Lazs, I have just one question for your area concept. I'm not a whing Napoleon wannabe on channel 2, but I do enjoy taking territory and winning a very rare reset (my squad plays on rooks). How would the strat system work in the "area" arena? Would we get a message like "The Late war war has been won by the bishops?"? Or would a country have to conquer all three areas to win a reset? I'm not against the area idea, but we should take into account more than just dogfights when considering how it could or should be implemented.

Sabre · « **Reply #19 on:** April 19, 2002, 01:37:50 PM »

Quote

The only problem is that with the areas and base captures, you can effectively lock out one country from an area. Would the "war" be won when one country is eliminated from an area? or would they be forced to fly solely in the other areas. Example, Bish and Rook capture all Knight fields in the late war areas. Knights can now only use the early and mid war areas or would the "war" be over?

I know Lazs doesn't care about field captures and strat but it is part of the game and it's not going away. Lazs, how does your Area Arena handle the strat variables and the progression of the virtual "war"?

I would like to know this too. Without a doubt it is the biggest sticking point of the "Area-Arena" concept. Also remember the reason we're going to larger maps is to spread the action out a bit more and to make the multi-strat-zone strategic system viable. It's quite possible that with or without one country or the other completely capturing an area, you could regularly find all 400 players in the MA concentrated over an even smaller map area than we have now. So a second MA set up with era-areas would make more sense. Or just go with a second arena with early war planes only. Of course, how do you decide what is "early war" enough to enable in there? Gotta think these things through before it can be seriously considered, you know.

By the way, the arena player limit is not based on how many people are in an area of the map, as I understand it. It has to do with how much the server and bandwidth can handle and keep track of in the arena itself. So a new MA is still the best way to handle the ever increasing numbers. Having said that, I don't think it would be much of a loss to try setting up the DA as a zoned-MA, rather than trying to do this in the MA.

If you go with multiple MA's, then I'd really like to see a clipboard option to bring up the map, roster, and status of the other arenas no matter which one you're in. Right now, you have to back out of an arena and log into the new one to see what is what there. This way, you could see at a glance if you want to log out and log into a different arena. Perhaps make it a tower-only option, if that would be easier to implement.

Toad · « **Reply #20 on:** April 19, 2002, 01:46:50 PM »

Laz I think your idea merits a test/try.

I do not think it should be given that test in the MA. Just as I know YOU and I BOTH don't think that the "CT concept" should be given a "test" in the MA.

The MA is a known product that the overwhelming majority of HTC's customer base prefers. As you don't favor letting the CT settings replace the MA, I don't favor letting either the CT or YOUR idea replace the MA.

If your idea is good, people will come. If it proves more popular than the MA, it would de facto become the MA. The CT has that same opportunity to compete with, not replace, the MA.

Your idea deserves neither more or less "chance" at becoming the MA by pure popularity than the CT does/did.

That's all I'm saying. Your idea has merit and deserves a try. It does not, IMO, deserve that try as a replacement for the MA but rather as an alternative to the MA. Let it stand or fall on its own popularity.

That's my .02.

Wlfgng · « **Reply #21 on:** April 19, 2002, 02:00:20 PM »

fyi we (assassins) love to fly early war planes. MA, CT, special arena, whatever..

lazs2 · « **Reply #22 on:** April 20, 2002, 10:34:42 AM »

as has been (wrongly) pointed out... I don't care about strat. Fact is, Ido care about strat. but only so far as it changes the dynamics of the air battle. I realize furs need a reason to form. When strat destroys good fighter battles is sucks... When it creates good fights it is great. filds that lay fallow with defenders unable to take off and attackers a long way from capturing them suck... when a couple of leantoos are bombed by one talentless spoiler and then the field is basicaly fallow until it comes back up and everyone just has to go further for a fight.... that sucks.

As to strat.. Not a big deal at all. Each area would have it's own reset. Good or bad it would work. If you cared about resets you might switch areas a lot and if you didn't care you would go where the action was... If you cared about only pee 51's you would stay in one area regardless. Early area would have less fields and weaker fluffs ... Mid would still have the most planes and fields.

for now.... I still think that an early war area in the arena would be a good start.

Toad... Yes... I don't want an allied vs axis thing in the MA. That is a major change and an arena killer. Thing is tho... the arena has changed. Way more planes and way more people. like it or not we have to admit that the MA as it is will not be a viable place for a large percentage of the planes modeled..... The perk sytem was the first admission of the fact that some planes simply do not belong in the same arena as others. HTC went (rightfuly so) to the mid and late war centric.... where the customers are. When late war planes were introduced then the "perk" system was instilled but... it was and is a stopgap... there is no way that it can work for early war planes.

So toad... since none of the old solutions work...we are left with doing something completely new in the arena or simply pretending that early war planes are unimportant outside of scenarios.

Like I said... I would love to see someone else come up with something fair, viable and fun. This is the best idea I can come up with however.

As an alternative... I would suggest 3 arenas but with maps that you could toggle through and the ability to click on any field in any map and take off from there...

but, I would love to hear another idea that isn't the same old tired worn out and done to death stuff. You can't force planesets on people or allied vs axis.... look at WB.
lazs

Urchin · « **Reply #23 on:** April 20, 2002, 04:58:39 PM »

I like Lazs idea, but it honestly doesn't workable to me. Seems to me that most people aren't interested in flying certain planes, as long as they can get easy kills. The Spitfires (because of good turning and great cannon), N1K2 (see above), La7 (best plane in the set), and P-51D (slightly worse overall than the La7, but better visibility) provide the average pilot with a relatively easy way to get kills.

Dividing the arena up would merely cram 95% of the MA population into an area 1/3rd the size of the map, while the remaining 2/3rds go unused. This will (in my opinion) lead to even greater polarization in the plane-set, since it will be either use a good turning plane (i.e. N1K or Spit) or a really really fast plane (La7 or P-51). Anything in the middle won't have enough room to sort of fly around the edges of furballs and bait people (like you can do now, sometimes- of course sometimes it backfires and you end up in a 15 on 1). The early and mid war 'areas' will stay empty (comparitively) because the kills won't come easily enough for people to want to fly there.

Of course, that is just my opinion.

lazs2 · « **Reply #24 on:** April 21, 2002, 10:07:36 AM »

urchin.. about half the current arena stays deserted at any one time now. We have only about 5 real viable planes to fly and about 6 more that are so so.

I don't think an early war area would be deserted but it would have to have the fields closer together to make up for the slower speeds. It would be an area of very rapid kills because it would have large furs between fields and the ability to feed the fur.

mid war would have all the viable plane choices we have now with the exption of maybe the lag7 and pee 51D and D9. If anything, the addition of a late war area would increase the usefullness of some of the borderline mid war planes that are not used much now. I actually see LW planes being used more in a mid war area with the lags and 51's gone.

The map wouldn't have to be much larger than it is now. The early and late war would have less fields than the mid. the earlyu would have the closest fields and the late the furthest. The mid could stay retty much the same.

What good are the f4f and spit one and hurri one and p40 and 109e at this point? What is so great about being known as a cowardly opportunist when flying pee51's or D9's and lags? I see more planes being viable not less.

Still waiting for an alternative that has not been proven to be a failure.
lazs

Revvin · « **Reply #25 on:** April 21, 2002, 12:30:02 PM »

Quote

800 mph winds at the border for instance.

ROFL what next? floating power-ups?

Toad · « **Reply #26 on:** April 21, 2002, 10:19:58 PM »

Laz, the CT guys could have made the same argument you made, ie: the MA isn't working and we need a new, better way... and here it is.

Just as I would not want a CT forced on anyone, I do not want your idea forced on anyone.

We have an empty dueling arena. Let's put your idea to the true test and install it there. If you build it.. and it is good... they will come. If not...

To reiterate: You don't want the CT forced on anyone and your idea should be treated in a similar fashion. Let it, like the CT stand or fall on its own.

Octavius · « **Reply #27 on:** April 21, 2002, 11:09:12 PM »

lazs, you have my vote

Toad..

I dont think Lazs's idea is *forcing* anything... more like a soft nudge

. The regular MA could still operate as it would at any other time. The only thing that will be changed (not even changed, only added, SEPARATELY) will be a smaller section of fields for lazs's ideal planeset. As I see it, and lazs has made clear several times, these two distinct areas will not have any interaction whatsoever. If implemented temporarily on the new, larger maps HTC has planned, then the two areas will be possible without limiting or subtracting from the normal MA area. Try it for a tour, hell lets try it for half a tour, or a week even. I dont think that would be too much of a risk. The whole player base surely wont up and quit because of a temporary experiment (unless a mass exodus in dweeby protest arises, HTC has nothing to fear). I say compare it to the little poll screens that HTC sometimes throws at you when ya log on. Do you really think if this is tested in the Dueling Arena that it will be successfull? I doubt it. This type of expirement needs the MA numbers in order to actually be tested correctly. I hope my point got through.. err lazs's point.

cheers
oct

[EDIT: i spelled my name wrong

]

Kieran · « **Reply #28 on:** April 21, 2002, 11:11:22 PM »

Well said, Toad.

Kieran · « **Reply #29 on:** April 21, 2002, 11:15:56 PM »

OTOH, Octavius, why not try CT settings in the MA? What could it hurt? I'm sure most players won't quit over an experiment...

Just in case you don't know, I don't really mean that. The MA is the breadwinner, and proposals to change it should be considered veeeerrry carefully before implemented.

Coca Cola changed a winning formula because it felt like it could do better than the majority market share it owned. Overnight the "new formula Coke" transformed the company into second place beverage producer. Guess how fast "classic Coke" came back to stores?