Author Topic: Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?  (Read 944 times)

Offline Toad

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2002, 04:23:02 PM »
Couple of thoughts Creamo.

First, somewhere down the road (IMO)  there's going to have to be separate arenas. As player count keeps going up, I think we'll have to split the herd just for playability. Unless these new servers do miracle work.

Second, you feel being in a separate arena automatically and irretrievably dooms a concept? I disagree. I think if someone comes up with a better (better = "more fun") arena concept and implements it instead of just asking for it then such an arena would be highly populated and a success. Even in a separate arena.

I personally don't believe the CT has lower numbers because it is a separate arena, although that is often advanced as the "true" reason for whatever numbers are quoted.

I think the concept, as executed, has limited desirability in the eyes of the majority of the player base. Some guys like it.. a small percentage. Most guys would simply rather play in the MA environment for whatever reason they personally value... ie: "don't like axis/allies, don't like dar changes, don't like icon changes, "too long to find fight", etc., etc., . Basic fact is that most players perceive the MA to be a better place to spend their limited online time.

The Dueling Arena is empty for the same reason. People don't fail to duel because there's no one there.. they fail to duel because they don't want to and would rather do something else. (I guess we could say they're not interested in a "fair fight" eh? That would explain why they're in the MA, would it not? ;) )

And again, I'm not opposed to Laz's hypothesis. It might well be very popular. What I'm opposing is the idea that HTC should drop what they're doing, immediately alter their most popular product and do what Laz tells them to do to create a "better arena".

Let's look at this thread. How many folks do you see in here begging HTC to give this idea a try? Heck, the CT crowd had way more support for their idea when they were lobbying for it on the BBS.

Where are the numerous players expressing a crying need for this change?

I DO think HTC would give Laz and any who support him a chance to create "heaven" in the nearly totally unused dueling arena. I also think if it was a "good" idea, it would be popular.

What I don't see is anyone willing to take on the challenge.. and, for that matter, I don't see all that many supporting the idea.. even though I do support it as a test run in a separate arena.



Where have I said "don't make suggestions?"

Two points:

Remember I support this idea.. the difference between you and I is that I don't support transforming the MA into this idea as a test. I support trying it out in the DA for a few months.

So, Laz made a suggestion, you agreed and I agreed partially with some differences.

So that's me saying "don't make suggestions?" Nah, sorry, not buying that one.

Secondly, with respect to suggestions, I think most posters on this BBS aren't afraid to make suggestions. That's a good thing.

The BAD thing is when HTC doesn't jump right up and say "WTG player XYZ! We'll implement this immediately!" it seems that some people take it personally.

In short, I think HTC keeps an eye on the discussions and ideas here. They may or may not participate in the actual debate but I think they track it overall.

Everybody makes suggestions here sooner or later. The difference is in how people respond to the counterpoints and the response or sometimes lack of same from HTC.

Some people don't seem to handle it well when others don't immediately bow before their brilliance. (Not pointed at anyone at all. Just an overall observation.)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2002, 07:09:46 PM by Toad »
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Offline hblair

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« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2002, 04:24:04 PM »
Since it doesn't appear HTC is going to use the perk system to make later war planes less common in the MA (I can see them not wanting to upset the Pony-D; 190D9 drivers, etc.), apparently they're looking for another way to make early war planes be more useful in the MA.

I don't see having two seperate arenas in one arena as being a plus myself.

Think of the chat buffer confusion. You have the early war guys talking to each other on the same radio as the late war guys use? What's the practicality in that?

As the game grows will the server be able to handle this load? Would there be a bandwidth issue?

If you're going to seperate early and late war, why wouldn't you do it with seperate arenas? Like an early war and late war main arena.

I do agree that something will eventually have to be done, but I'm pretty skeptical about this area arena thing.

Offline Sabre

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2002, 08:03:44 PM »
Lazs said:
Quote
As to strat.. Not a big deal at all. Each area would have it's own reset.


This is a tacit acknowledgement that it wouldn't work without changes to the code. I have a problem with grand sweeping statements like this.  It is a big deal.  Your talking about a potentially large amount of code change here.  You're asking HTC to rewrite code to test an untried concept in their bread-n-butter arena.  Asking a bit much, aren't we?  Especially since no one seems willing to step up and do the leg work for this.  And it won't work without these code changes.  Here's why.  Let's say someone (HTC or someone in the community) bites the bullet and builds this terrain.  Let's say HTC puts it up in the MA without any code changes.  In the late-era area one country conquers first one enemy then the other.  Suddenly, everyone is forced to fly in the early-era area until HTC can reset the arena.

I've still not heard a definitive explanation of how or if a workable terrain could be built, either.  Just build 30,000 foot high walls between the area?  And then put 800 mile per hour downdrafts at 30,000 feet to keep people on the reservation?  Actually, the vertical wind speed limit is 127 mph, so would this truly prevent someone from getting over the wall?  Terrain builders, help me out here.  What happens at the edge of the printed map?  Does the wall continue to infinity, or does it simply stop?  If it can't be carried a fair distance beyond the printed map edge, than it would be easy to go around.

Bottom line, where's the potential payoff here for HTC?  I have heard no one complain on this board that they're quiting because they can't fly early war planes against other early war planes.  On the other hand there have been those who've posted that because of the CT they've either kept their accounts instead of quiting as they had planned, or have reactivated their account.  I'm not saying this to flaunt the CT, but to point out that HTC was willing to grant the CT crowd their "dream" because (a) it cost them nothing to turn it over to them; (b) the community was willing to do the leg work for HTC; and (c) it appeard that it would keep or bring in new players.  Cost vs benefit.

Now a separate arena to try this in (one where no one who doesn't want to be affected by the unsolved reset and Strat problem) or even just a separate early-war arena, adminstered by players as the CT is, that might stand a chance of garnering HTC's support.
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Offline Octavius

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Toad
« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2002, 08:08:03 PM »
hehe..whats with singling me out?  I already feel speshul enough :)

I see where we may have misunderstood each other.  Well, I see my fault anyway.  I read your post too fast and read it as saying "go make your own game."  Oooopsies!  

Anyhoo, I agree that would be a neat idea to loan someone the DA for an experiment.  But I think I remember HT or Pyro recently saying they're not going to give up their bandwidth for some puny mortal to tinker with an experiment.  

I'm sure there would be minor technicalities that would need a small work-around.  I certainly wouldnt want HTC to drop everything and direct their enegy for this... not at all.  Right now, hell we're just talking about an idea, not the logistics :).  I dont have much time to expand any more, so I'll get going and shut up for the time being.


cheers
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Offline Kieran

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2002, 08:44:24 PM »
Toad, it's eerie how alike we sound in two different forums. I agree with you 100%.

Offline Hamish

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #50 on: April 22, 2002, 09:20:47 PM »
Hey this is easy, Lasz, you want an area arena? well, download the Terrain Editor, use the TE forum for help, and build the terrain yourself. then, when ya got it done, put it in for submission into the CT terrain rotation. that would give it a test run, then you could submit it to HTC for review/approval for the MA. Viola, your idea has been implemented, tested, reviewed by HTC, and you can feel a sense of accomplishment that you tried your idea. What's the worst thing they can do? Say no? then what have you lost?



Hamish

Offline WhiteHawk

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #51 on: April 22, 2002, 10:58:17 PM »
A darn good question..

How do we bring the whole planeset into play?  How do YOU feel
when u strap on the goggles and flick back the scarf in the
Spit 1, only to get slobbered by a fricken Niki and his la7 bud.
  Daring?  Courageous? Angry?           Well I feel dumb.
Back to my Me109G-10.

Any attempt at "change" will be met with a roar of
"I pay $15, and if I dont get to fly my plane, I will cancel!!!"

An arena within an arena?  very little difference
than 2 separate arena's.  If any at all.    In fact,  2clicks of the
mouse is the difference.  Change AH core product for 2 clicks??
Very risky.

I feel, if this question is to be answered, HTC will have to
answer it.  They will have to 'force' it on us and 'cram' it down
our throats.  

Rotating planesets?
Scenario in the MA?
CT Format?
Perk system improvemnt?
Maybe certain aribases only offer certain planes?
Or as the hangars are destroyed, the selection of planes
dwindles?

A darn good question indeed

  :confused:

Offline lazs2

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2002, 08:51:26 AM »
hammish... It would be a lousy idea in the CT with the constrictions there

toad... seperate arenas don't work....yet.... here you are after all these years falling back on that lame old concept that has been proven a player base killer over and over.    I don't think an idea like an area arena could work in a seperate arena.

HTC will do something eventually.   who knows what it will be?   I didn't like the perk system but because it works so poorly I believe it is a resounding success.   But.... it is outdated allready unless it is implemented in smaller seperate arenas.

Seperate arena's..... they kill the sense of community.   Who even cares what is going on in the CT for example or.... how many responses do threads about last nights scenario or WW get?   No one cares.   The MA guys don't feel a part of any of it.   Pretend otherwise at your peril.

Try my arena in the DA or whatever??  Not me.   I just come up with the ideas and piss on other peoples..  If someone tried it in another arena I would most likely not go there.   Why??? well gee.... no body would be there.   My squad mates wouldn't be there.  Seperate arenas don't work or work very poorly.

The only way seperate arena idea that will work is if they are like my "area"  arena... you can toggle through the maps and see whart is happening and click on any field in any arena.    

whitehawk... the differnce is huge.   leaving one arena and going into another just to see if something might possibly be happening?   That doesn't happen and is impractical in any case it takes way more time and effort than it is worth.   By the time you get the feel of the arena you just clicked into.   It takes quite a while to realize you have just wasted your time  and... left all your squadmates behind.

toad... don't be so sensitive.   I don't care what you kill but I don't think you should be able to fly your 51B against Spit ones and P40's.  

As for the buffer... 400 people is 400 people... A43 is still A43  no confussion there.

sabre... are you saying that a seperate area with a seperate reset is that difficult to do?

Hey.... I ain't gonna do it.  I'm far too lazy and lack the skills.   It is simply an idea.   I feel that I have not seen any objection to it that was even sensible.  

In WB i was told that if I didn't like the view system I should design my own... In AH I was told if I didn't think the planes turned well enough in 1.03 then I should design my own game.   That ain't gonna happen.   Like most guys I simply have an idea from time to time.    When a sim comes out that has the most features that I like or the best (for me) gameplay I vote with my feet.
lazs

Offline AKDejaVu

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2002, 09:01:37 AM »
Look at the "problem" with numbers with the current 3 team setup.  Now.. take 400 and divide it by 6.

Thinning out the MA is not a good idea.

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Offline hblair

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #54 on: April 23, 2002, 09:29:39 AM »
I agree with you to a point laz. There is a herd mentality. People are less likely to choose a different arena than they are accustom to. That is a big problem a second arena has. I'd propose doing something different than just throwing them all in the MA though.

I'd like to see something different when you click "online". Instead of the clipboard coming up with the arena names/# in arena/ ping times, I think it'd be cool if you were put into an old looking WWII looking "Ready Room" with a chalkboard or something on the wall listing the arenas with clickable names that tell ya what each arenas about, like: Main arena Early War, Main Arena Late War, Combat Theater, Dueling Arena, Special Events Arena, etc. If there was a WW event about to run, have the SEA link blinking or something to draw your attention, maybe beside it have "Wild Wednesday event begins at 09:00 tonight", or possibly a recorded 15 second message that tells ya on certain days when an event starts. I think we need a more attractive way into the arenas. You could click on each arena and you go to the tower in the selected arena. I'd like to see some way around listing the population in each arena in the same place you make your choice to go in the arena.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2002, 10:10:40 AM »
Well, I guess we'll just see what HTC comes up with then. ;)
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Offline Sabre

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« Reply #56 on: April 23, 2002, 11:01:17 AM »
Quote
sabre... are you saying that a seperate area with a seperate reset is that difficult to do?


Yes, I’m saying it is likely a very significant effort to (a) decide exactly how it would work, (b) code it up, (c) test-debug-test, (d) document it, and (e) put it into production.  All to test whether it would indeed result in more early war planes being used in the MA and, more importantly, if it would positively affect HTC net revenue.  Production of the map alone could take a hundred man-hours, assuming no changes are needed to the TE to implement an impervious inter-area barrier.  So yeah, my gut feel is that it is more involved than you think.  People tend to think software is cheap…it’s not.  I just don’t think you’ve thought it through or considered all the ramifications to the total game.

A test run of a separate arena for early-war is the best way to judge interest.  If you run it in there, with all the same settings/strat as the MA, you will collect data on whether it’s truly important to people.  Those that really want to fly early war rides will go there, just like those that really want historical match ups fly in the CT.  If you can get even 10% of the MA numbers at peak times (something the CT does regularly) than you’ve got a case for HTC expending effort to somehow integrate early war into the MA somehow.  

Now I do support the idea of being able to look at the status of an arena while in any other arena, and a button to transport you directly from one to the other would be a nice convenience.  Would this accomplish the goal you’re seeking after?  This also would involve a lot of programming, but is a more elegant engineering solution then your idea of subdividing the MA, in my opinion.  It’s almost always easier to build a bridge between two islands than to build a new island.  And it preserves the unique characteristics of each of those islands.
Sabre
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Offline lazs2

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2002, 02:34:38 PM »
hblair... no.. I don't think so.   I think that we need to know how many people are in each arena before we blunder into it or people will log off in disgust when they click into a deserted (or nearly so) arena.   There were six people in CT when I siggned on last nite prime time.   I woulda been pissed if I blundered into that ghost town.    the ability to change arenas byu clicking on some sort of map/toggle feature would be great tho... seems I've said this many times tho.

sabre...  nothing to decide.  It would work exactly like the rest of the MA but with fewer fields.  Let's not complicate things.   Think MA... think simple.  

I am curious as to your thinking on early war planes tho... You say that we need to try a seperate arena for them for..... what?   to see if people will fly early war planes???   seems the CT has the highest numbers during early war periods so the CT has allready done that research.  Also... I don't know how many times i have to say it or, worse yet, how many times it has to be proven.... Seperate arenas don't work or.... at best, work badly.   Seperate arenas would prove nothing except that fact and that has been proven over and over allready.

Again... as simply as possible.... an early war area in the arena would not harm anyone but it would offer a viable place for early war planes.   If it were little used it would be no big deal.   It could be ignored and it would not matter to anyone.   All the advantages of a seperate arena with none of the disadvantages.

deja... how do you figure?   We don't use half thed map now it seems.   Those who want bigger maps really only want the fields farther apart.   I don't think things would change too much.   I think it likely tho that the early war area would get crowded from time to time.    As a bonus.... the early war closer field area would be a great place for those who have to play at non peak times.... a more compact "arena" within the arena.
lazs

Offline lazs2

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #58 on: April 23, 2002, 02:40:56 PM »
Oh.... three things I believe... the idea won't work as a seperate arena....  I won't ever put an ounce of effort into making it happen and.....  HTC will do whatever they want.

I am simply making a suggestion since there seems to be a total lack of ideas on getting early war planes in the MA.   For all I know HTC has allready developed an idea that is very simular or 180 apart from my idea.    They still have the best game in town.  I will stick with em till somebody comes up with something better.  
lazs

Offline Wlfgng

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2002, 02:42:16 PM »
How about a compromise.

The problem, aluded to by laz, is that when you go to an arena you 'leave' the others.. I.E. no communication with squaddies, etc.

How about keeping the seperate arenas but making communicaiton between them available?

I.E. another channel or some way of 'monitoring' and/or staying in touch with those that aren't in your currently chosen arena.