Current CT Pac setups are way, way too hard on the Japanese

[Karnak]

Sorry Jarbo, but I'm going to have to complain.

Here is the current list, so far as I can see it:

Japanese:

A6M5b: Free everywhere, but hoplessly out classed by every Allied fighter. ENY 25 indicates that it is an even fight for the F4U-1 and better than the P-38L.  That's just a joke.

Bf110C-4b:   Why is this even enabled?  It brings no new capabilites to the Japanese side and is dogmeat for every fighter.  ENY is 25, but it is moot as it shouldn't be there.

C-47A: Stand in for the L2D.

Ju88A-4:  I guess this is a stand in for the G4M "Betty".  The Betty had a max bombload of 2,000lbs, no armor and better guns.  The Ju88A-4 has no place in the setup.

Ki-61-I-KAIc: This is the best Japanese fighter available and it fights from a massive disadvantage.  Despite that, it's ENY of 18 means that it can't be used to get perk points.  Flying P-38s forever is easy, just a matter of killing 5 Ki-61s for every 3 P-38s lost.

Ki-67:  This is the only Japanese bomber available.  ENY of 17 effectively feeds free perk points to the Allies.

N1K2-J:  Perked and limited to unknown rear fields, it might as well be removed.  This is the only fighter the Japanese have that is able to compete and it is fuctionally removed from play.  The ENY values on the Japanese fighters make using it, even at its 2 point cost, even more difficult.

TBM-3:  Stand in for the B6N2.

Allies:

B-26B:  Medium bomber with good payload and good defensive fire.  ENY of 25 means that the Ki-67 is considered to be better, but that's a joke.

C-47A:  Transport.

F4U-1:  Early F4U, good representational fighter for the USMC.  ENY of 25 says that an A6M5b is an even fight and the Ki-61 has the edge.  BS.

P-38L:  Perked, but available from every base and having an ENY of 30 makes this, especially considering its ground attack capabilites, a massive subsidization of the Allies.  At the very least make it so that it doesn't get nearly 2 perk points (its cost) for killing a Ki-61.

P-47D-11:  Free and available from every base the fighter outclasses all Japanese fighters, even the perked and base crippled N1K2.

P-51B:  This fighter massively outclasses all Japanese fighter, including the N1K2, and yet has an ENY of 20 and is free from every base.

F4U-1D:  USN F4U, is available from carriers only.  Its ENY of 18 makes it the best bet for the Japanese to earn perks, and yet even though it massively out classes the Ki-61 only 1 point will be had for killinng it.

Seafire Mk IIc:  RN carrier fighter, available from carriers only and with an ENY of 25, same as the A6M5b that it outclasses.


If the Allies are going to have the P-51B and P-38L available from every base whereas the Japanese don't even have a Ki-61-II, let alone an actual competitive fighter like the Ki-84, then the N1K2 should also be available from every base.

The Ki-84 was produced in massive numbers, 3,500, was the best Japanese fighter and isn't available in AH.  The N1K2 should be enabled as a freebie and at every base as a stand in for the Ki-84.

The idea that everybody will fly it and it should thus be limited doesn't sit right with me because it is only being used against the Japanese.  It makes me worry that when the Ki-84 is added it still won't be allowed in the CT and the Japanese position will remain screwed.

At the absolute minimum, at least don't stack the ENY values so obviously in favor of the Allies.

[ZeroPing]

He is right... Japs always get screwed(from what i see)
IMHO that is

[Karnak]

I just gave it another try.

Its a joke.

I'll be back if things get fixed, or next week, whichever comes first.

This setup is so laughably biased in favor of the Allies.

[Tac]

Agreed Karnak.


The issue is mainly on the free avaliablity of the P-51B and the F6F from carriers.

From my point of view, the allies should:

1) Have the P-38 (unperked) avaliable only from their back bases. Not avaliable from newly taken fields. Maybe this would make 38 jocks fly 2 sectors to get to a fight (and with DT's that is no problem). P-51B should also be avaliable from back fields and PERKED at 2 pnts. The pony has far superior abilities vs IJN than a 38 does.

2) F6F perked at 5 pnts. Having it enabled from CV's only creates a fricken MASSIVE horde of hellokittys that easily overwhelm and dominate any IJN resistance with just 1 or 2 waves. Its also got a heavy ordenance load, which far outclasses the IJN jabo payload.

3) Enable F4U-1 from carriers. I dont give a rats bellybutton if they were land based. Make the F4U-1 the main allied ride, like the Zeke is for the IJN. Enable SEAFIRE on CV (perhaps 1 cv with seafires , another with F4U-1s?...both having F6F as perk avaliable).

This is done to LIMIT the unholy advantage US rides have in the air and in the jabo area. If allies have only the F4U-1 and seafire as their main ride, their jabo is restricted to almost the same as that of IJN, so allies wanting to bomb would take the TBM or the B26 (currently unused..theres no need for them if 3 of your fighters can carry just as much ord AND fight a-a!).

For the IJN:

1) Add C202 substituting for the Ki-43 or Ki44 (with MG armament only), add Bf110G2 and C4 substituting for Ki-102 and Ki-46 twin fighters respectively. 110G2 avaliable only from back bases, unperked

2) Perk N1k at 2 pnts and make it avaliable from all fields.

3) Increase the perk gathering power of the Zeke and Ki61. Use this to balance out the advantage non-perked US fighters have over them.. these perks would be used to get the n1k, which in turn overwhelms the other allied rides (except P-51B).

[ZeroPing]

For once...
Tac has made a good statement..
tac

[jarbo]

Thanks for the suggestions for play balance.

I made a mistake on the N1K..It should be enabled at all Axis fields now, i made a mistake in the setup.   I will evaluate the "imbalance" through this tour and make modifications for next run.  If you read MOTD, you would notice that Seafires are enabled from 1 CV and F4u-1 AND f4u1-D ARE ENABLED FROM a different CV as well.  

Jarbo
CT Staff

[jarbo]

BTW:  Perk gathering power of aircraft cannot be modified currently to my understanding

Jarbo
CT Staff

[Sabre]

Jarbo, the Cost, OBJ, and ENY values can be altered, but not by us.  Pyro or another HTC person has to do it.   My fault for not mentoring you well enough on that aspect of arena set-up:(.  If you decide you want to alter them, just send an e-mail to Pyro asking him to modify them in what ever manner you deem fair and necessary.   I like the set up otherwise.

Sabre
CT Staff

[eskimo2]

Karnak,
I just flew in this set-up for the first time, tonight.
First I was Allied, then Japanese, then Allied agan.
I ran about the same K/D in the F4U-1 and the N1K and was a little worse in the A6M, but I was doing a lot of Jabo and ack-stripping in the Jap planes.

The only imballance that I saw was when the sides became lopsided, which went both ways tonight.

I think it's fine.

eskimo

[Karnak]

Other than handing speed, jabo, firepower, climb rate, durability, ENY settings and bomb load to the Allies its perfectly balanced.

Of course that is to say its not even slighly in any way balanced.

When the RN carrier is around the Japanese don't even have turning as an option.  I was trapped in a fight with Seafires and P-51s.   Ki-61 is very difficult to win with in that situation, so I HOed a P-38 and got .59 perk points for shooting down a perk plane with my mediocre Japanese fighter.

Ki-84 would balance the fighter situation, being a match for the P-51 and F4U.  Yet given the respones I have seen from the CT team I can only assume that when the Ki-84 is added it too will be removed from play.

EDIT:

It seems to me that the intention with each Pac setup is to give the Allies a punching bag, yet the intention of each European / North African setup is to give the Germans and Italians an unhistoric parity with the Allies.

Why is the CT staff so concerned about the Japanese getting to use the high end equippment and yet willing to let the Germans run rampant with theirs?  My specific example is the Fw190A-5 in the Tunisia setup last month.  It wasn't controlled at all and got to use Spit Vs and Hurri IIs as punching bags even though Fw190A-5s were at best extremely rare in North Africa and at worst never even there.

Now, I understand that putting the Germans on an unhistorical parity with the Allies is good for gameplay and I have no problem with it in that context, but why is parity suddenly bad for gameplay when its Allies vs. Japanese?

[brady]

I have flown the Japanese prety mush all the time this set up, I have been able to improve apon my K/D ratio in my overall rankings, in fact my ftr rank has gone down.

  I realy feal, as I have stated before, and Karnak you have been a big proponent of this your self, we realy nead more Japanese planes in AH. How about a N1K1 for our mid war plane set's? instead of always having to perk the N1K2 we have? now theirs an idea:)(althought the N1K1-J did not enter service untill very early 44.) ...We nead more Japanese planes:)

[Wotan]

Karnak are you insane????

Germans in Stalingrad 1943 lw ac vrs 1944 VVS aircraft

Tunisia

p51b and p38l b26 moss vrs 1943 lw a/c italians had the 202 in tunisia what concession was that?


Now I assume you are referring to the lack of the spit ix. Even reading Funkeds thread spit ixs were available in very limited numbers. in one flight he used as proof that spit ixs were there at that time showed 4 out of ten in a flight were spit ixs. read buzzbaits reply in that thread.

Who do you think flies as IJN/IJA during pac set ups. Mostly guys who fly lw planes.

Pac setups are always and have been from the 1st one a onesided affair in terms of attack capability.

I earned 30 perks in the ct today flying a zeke. p51bs attacked  my zeke from above as i was deacking a field. I killed all 4. I had 3 runs of 4 plus kills all landed in a zeke.

I have np killing in ija/n planes but it gets so boring with the ho run to ack  repeat they rarely get hits but spend most of their time running.

If it gets bad I log. The problem as I see it in pac set ups are in attack.

For instance 1 ija/n plane cant kill a vbase. We had 6 closed for near an hour. I killed the ack 4 times. We could never get enough ord on the twn to keep it ded.

I dunno what parity concession you are talking about in relation luft/eto set ups but the by far majority like the pac set ups are to the benefit of the allies.

even the ju88 in bob was whined about by allied folk. But they never mentioned the 50 cal tbms the allies used.

So all the fuss about the ju88 i upped a spit 1 and killed a flight of 4 ju88s on my own. I had np killing umm so is that the type of concession you are speaking of of.

The problem is the planset it self. Either we only do late war eto stuff or just we shut up and play the ones we like and skip the ones we dont. And if you have a better idea of what will work I believe theres room for another volunteer on the ct cm staff.

wotan has 39 kills and has been killed 19 times in the A6M5b.

over ct tour 4 (this tour hasnt been reset and covers 2 other pac set ups plus 1 day of this set up) atleast 10 of my deaths are from ack. I was killed 4 times by 5 inch flak in 1 day.

No doudt most of these fights are like pulling teeth

wotan has 7 kills and has been killed 1 time in the A6M5b against the P-51B.

all 7 of these were today the guy who got credit for the 1 kill had pinged my but twn ack got me and finished me off.


As much as I concede that pac set ups are onesided I have lots of fun and cant wait for the day when the bluebirds can no longer run to ack. I may quit lw planes all together and join a ijn squad

btw i hate the guns on the tony rof is too high i waste too much ammo per kill to make it worth my time to fly. 1 or 2 kills then rtb is boring. The niki rof is too slow I find the zeke about right.

[Wilbus]

Agree with what Wotan says. Don't think that CT staff favour LW vs Allied plane set and want to make it more even by adding LW planes that didn't exist. 190A-4 flew in Tunisa with Jg2 and (I think) a Jabo squad. Ju88A-4 flew in BoB.

The N1K2 has been added to all fields and it was obviously a misstake which Jarbo corrected rather fast. Unperk it? No, it's cheap, i could afford it after my first flight in the Ki61 and flew it the rest of the evening. Slow? Yeah, didn't stand a chance of catching the P51's and F4u's I saw but in furrballs and zoom fights, no plane what so ever beats the Niki.

The plane set IS unbalanced, why? Because the Japanese, with a few exceptions, built planes for Maneuverabilty instead of speed, something that sevred them well early in teh war (zeke vs F2m etc) and gave the zeke a reputation in both USA and Japan to be near unbeatable. US got faster planes, Zeke could do nothing more but to try and avoid being B&Z.
N1K2, late war plane, not very fast but very good. Ki84, late war aswell, very very good and maybe even the best plane the Japanse had.

All we can hope for is to get a Ki84 and Ki100 (ask Mitsu for info on that bird).

Karnak, you're right about the ENY, indeed very wrong but CM's can't change it.

Jarbo, could you talk to Pyro about it? He's changed it upon request in the CT several times before and might be nice to have him change it now aswell

[sling322]

Originally posted by Karnak

Now, I understand that putting the Germans on an unhistorical parity with the Allies is good for gameplay and I have no problem with it in that context, but why is parity suddenly bad for gameplay when its Allies vs. Japanese?

My guess would be that the Luft-Whiners whine better than the Zeke-whiners.  

[-ammo-]

I think the current setup is a good one for both sides (giving the restriction the Japanese have with modele AC). I flew IJA last night and had a decent time. My first hop was in a zero and killed 3 P-51's that bounced me. I was lucky:)

The tunisia setup was fun, but the setup leaned heavily for the LW. It wasnt P-51's, P-38's, B26's against 1943 LW AC. No sir, it was Spit5's and Hurri's agaisnt 190A5's and 109G2's the majority of the time.  When the fight got north, after the allies had lost several fields, then the pony's and the lightening's came into play. The Spit9 was enabled on the last day at 3 fields, but two of them were LW held , and the third field, A32, was used exclusively:D until The LW took that from us ending our short stint in the Spit9 in Tunisia.

It was still fun. The CT is a total blast and I really am glad we have it to use!