Author Topic: Crash cource in mid-east history (a must read for some)  (Read 1433 times)

Offline Hortlund

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Crash cource in mid-east history (a must read for some)
« on: May 03, 2002, 07:40:14 AM »
There are way too many people posting stuff without knowing what they talk about on certain subjects. It becomes frustrating for everyone involved.

These are all FACTS
Use these facts to build your own  opinions

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1. During World War I (1914-1918), Turkey (a.k.a. Ottoman Empire) supported Germany. When Germany was defeated, so were the Turks. Control of the southern portion of their empire was "mandated" to France and Britain. The area under British supervision was referred to as "Palestine".



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2. In 1923 the British "chopped off" 75% of the proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian Nation of "Trans-Jordan", meaning "across the Jordan River".



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3. The U.N. Resolution 181 partition plan was to divide the remaining 25% of Palestine into a Jewish Palestinian State and a SECOND Arab Palestinian State (Trans-Jordan being the first) based upon population concentration. The Jews accepted, the Arabs rejected.

On May 14, 1948 the Palestinian Jews declared their own State of Israel. On the next day, Israel was at war with seven Arab armies... Egypt, Trans-Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen. Most of the Arabs living within the boundaries of "Israel" decided to leave their homes for various reasons. Those Arabs who did not run away became today's Israeli Arab citizens. Those who fled became the seeds of the so-called "Palestinian Arab refugees".



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4. The end result of the 1948-49 Israeli War of Independence was a Jewish State slightly larger than that which was proposed by the United Nations two years before. What remained of that almost-created 2nd Arab Palestinian State was gobbled up by Egypt (Gaza Strip) and by Trans-Jordan (the "West Bank" of the Jordan River). At that point, Trans-Jordan became known as just "Jordan" since its borders now extended west of the Jordan River. In the final analysis, the Arabs of Palestine ended up with nearly 75% of the original territory of Palestine.


Offline Apache

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Crash cource in mid-east history (a must read for some)
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2002, 07:48:21 AM »
You need to re-title your thread to "Crash course in 20th century mid-east history".

Offline Sikboy

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Crash cource in mid-east history (a must read for some)
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2002, 07:51:36 AM »
This is how I understood the History... but why stop there. A this point in History, there isn't much of what is currently under scrutiny. Do you have anything covering the 67 and 73 wars, which brought The West Bank and Gaza Strip under Israeli Occupation?

Just facts mind you, I don't mean to lend any analysis to the situation. That would be a Professional Service, and you'd have to pay me for that lol.

-Sikboy
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Hortlund

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Crash cource in mid-east history (a must read for some)
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2002, 08:36:26 AM »
History class with uncle Hortlund -part 2

Ok, here is the rest of the story. I'm going to great lengths here to avoid getting caught in any political viewpoints mind you.

Once again, the FACTS

During the first few months of 1949, direct negotiations were conducted under UN auspices between Israel and each of the invading countries (except Iraq which has refused to negotiate with Israel to date), resulting in armistice agreements which reflected the situation at the end of the fighting. Accordingly, the coastal plain, Galilee and the entire Negev were within Israel's sovereignty, Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) came under Jordanian rule, the Gaza Strip came under Egyptian administration, and the city of Jerusalem was divided, with Jordan controlling the eastern part, including the Old City, and Israel the western sector.



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1956 -The Sinai war

After the 1949 agreement, Israeli and Israel-bound shipping was prevented from passing through the Suez Canal; Egypt blockaded the Straits of Tiran for shipping to or from Israel; incursions into Israel of paramilitary forces from neighboring Arab countries occurred with increasing frequency; and Egypt began militarizing the Sinai peninsula.

In October 1956, Egypt, Syria and Jordan signed a tripartate military alliance. Israel saw this as a direct threat to its security, and attacked Egypt. In the course of an eight-day campaign, the IDF captured the Gaza Strip and the entire Sinai peninsula, halting 10 miles east of the Suez Canal.

A United Nations decision to station a UN Emergency Force (UNEF) along the Egypt-Israel border and Egyptian assurances of free navigation in the Gulf of Eilat led Israel to agree to withdraw in stages (November 1956 - March 1957) from the areas taken a few weeks earlier.



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1967, -The six days war.

After the Sinai war, there was an escalation of Arab paramilitary-organization-raids targeting Israeli non-combatants across the Egyptian and Jordanian borders. Also, Syria began artillery bombardments from the Golan heights against Israeli agricultural settlements in northern Galilee. Egypt, Jordan and Syria begain military build-ups on the borders to Israel. Egypt moved large numbers of troops into the Sinai desert (May 1967), ordered the UN peacekeeping forces (deployed since 1957) out of the area, reimposed the blockade of the Straits of Tiran and entered into a military alliance with Jordan.  

Israel perceived this as a direct threat to its security, and on the 5th of June 1967, Israel launched a preemptive strike against Egypt in the south. This was followed by attacks from Jordan and Syria into Israel.

Relative strength, June 1967
Israel
Men: 264.000
Tanks: 800
Aircraft: 350

Arabs (Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Iraq)
Men: 410,000
Tanks: 2,200
Aircraft: 810

Losses
About 10,000 Egyptians were killed in Sinai and Gaza alone, compared with 300 Israeli casualties on that front. Egypt lost 80 percent of its Russian-supplied military equipment including 800 tanks and 300 aircraft. Jordan suffered 7,000 killed and wounded and the destruction of its entire air force and 80 percent of its armor. Syria lost about 1000 men and two-thirds of its air force.

Israel lost 700 men.

Israel won the war.

In September 1968, Egypt initiated a war of attrition, with sporadic, static actions along the banks of the Suez Canal, which escalated into full-scale, localized fighting, causing heavy casualties on both sides. Hostilities ended in 1970 when Egypt and Israel accepted a renewed cease-fire along the Suez Canal.




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1973 -Yom Kippur war

Three years of relative calm along the borders ended on Yom Kippur, when Egypt and Syria launched a coordinated surprise assault against Israel (6 October 1973), with the Egyptian army crossing the Suez Canal and Syrian troops penetrating the Golan Heights.

The forces on the Syrian front:

Israel: 2 armored brigades

Syria: 2 tank armies

Israel was outnumbered nearly 12 to 1 (there were over 1,100 Syrian tanks versus 157 Israeli tanks)

Sinai front:

Along the Suez Canal during the first two or three days of the war, 436 Israelis stood between 80.000 Egyptian troops and Israel.

In the first minute of the attack, the Egyptians launched a concentrated barrage of 10,500 shells on a handful of Israeli fortifications at the rate of 175 shells per second. Egyptian aircraft then bombed the same positions, after which the first wave of 8,000 assault infantrymen stormed across the Suez.

For some flavour, two short stories from both fronts:

An Egyptian commander later recounted how a lone Israeli tank fought off his infantry division for more than half an hour. This solitary tank inflicted heavy casualties on his troops. After repeated assaults, they finally overcame the tank. The Egyptian commander was amazed to find that all of the crew members had all been killed with the exception of one badly wounded soldier, who had continued the fight.

A young lieutenant, a tank commander, found that his tank was the only surviving tank in his company. Instead of retreating he continued to engage the Syrian tanks. He darted in and out among the hills at night, destroying one enemy tank after another. His tank was hit and set afire. Suffering burns on his arms and face, he flung himself off of his burning tank, and together with his crew found another, immobile tank, and continued his war. By the time he was relieved (because of wounds), he had single-handedly destroyed 60 Syrian tanks.

How did the war end?

The UN forced a cease fire when Israeli tanks were advancing on both Cairo and Damascus

Israel won this war too.

Two years of difficult negotiations between Israel and Egypt and between Israel and Syria resulted in disengagement agreements, according to which Israel withdrew from parts of the territories captured during the war.



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1982 -Lebanon

The international boundary line between Israel and Lebanon has never been challenged by either side. However, when the PLO redeployed itself in southern Lebanon after being expelled from Jordan (1970) and perpetrated repeated attacks against the towns and villages of northern Israel (Galilee), the Israel Defense Forces crossed the border into Lebanon (1982).

In the operation, IDF removed the bulk of the PLO's organizational and military infrastructure from the area. Since then, Israel maintained a small security zone in southern Lebanon adjacent to its northern border "to safeguard its population in Galilee against continued attacks by hostile elements."


Offline capt. apathy

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Crash cource in mid-east history (a must read for some)
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2002, 08:47:13 AM »
Or you could start back in the first or second century (I forget which, it's still early)

When the Romans moved the Jews from Israel and spread them throughout their empire and moved in the philistines (SP?)

Or you could go back to the time of Abraham- 2,000 or was it 4,000 BC. (Again it's early and I’m not fully awake) when the problems between the Jews and the Arabs began.

I think one of the main problems is that people who try to help solve this, look at a problem that began many thousands of years ago and say something like "I've looked back 3/4 of a century and considered all the issues in this case..."

I doubt there is much anybody can do on this issue. Even if you get a peace treaty you will have enough radicals on both sides who will violate it then the main-stream on each side will claim the other side is violating the treaty and it will all start again.

And then of course if there ever is a real peace treaty guaranteeing Israel’s safety, that opens up the Revelations thing, but that's a whole other rant

Offline Hortlund

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Crash cource in mid-east history (a must read for some)
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2002, 08:52:56 AM »
IMO it would be both pointless and futile to go back to 100AD and try to draw any conclusions from that. The historical facts simply are too sketchy. In fact, it would be wrong to talk about historical facts, theories would be a better word.

To go back to 2000 BC is simply rediculous.

Offline Nashwan

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Crash cource in mid-east history (a must read for some)
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2002, 09:09:00 AM »
It leaves out a hell of a lot of important facts.

We could go back to the begining of recorded time, before the Jews conquered Israel, then the Babylonians conquered it, then the Jews got it back, then the Macedonians got it, then the Romans, then the Byzantines, then the rabs, then the Crusaders, then the Arabs again, then the Turks.

However, rather than go back 2000 years to when it was last a Jewish country, look at the more recent history.

1897 World Zionist conference meets and decides to set up a Jewish state in Palestine.

1917 Balfour Declaration. British government approves the following declaration:
His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country
(my emphasis)

From 1900 - 1947 there was continued Jewish immigration, and the setting up of Jewish councils etc to run Jewish affairs, seperate from the British administration. There was no attempt to integrate, as Zionism committed itself to a Jewish state.

The first census of the British mandate gave the population of Palestine, not including trans Jordan, as 589,000 muslims, 84,000 Jews, 71,000 Christians, 7,000 others.

By 1942 tht had increased to 995,000 Muslims, 484,000 Jews, 127,000 Christians

At the time of partition, Jews owned 6 - 8% of the land of Palestine, approx 20% of the cultivatable land. The remainder 93% of all land, 80% of cultivatable land, was owned by Arabs.

Quote
3. The U.N. Resolution 181 partition plan was to divide the remaining 25% of Palestine into a Jewish Palestinian State and a SECOND Arab Palestinian State (Trans-Jordan being the first) based upon population concentration. The Jews accepted, the Arabs rejected.

On May 14, 1948 the Palestinian Jews declared their own State of Israel. On the next day, Israel was at war with seven Arab armies... Egypt, Trans-Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen. Most of the Arabs living within the boundaries of "Israel" decided to leave their homes for various reasons. Those Arabs who did not run away became today's Israeli Arab citizens. Those who fled became the seeds of the so-called "Palestinian Arab refugees".

You've left out a bit between those two paragraphs.

Prior to the declaration of the state of Israel, the Haganah, the de facto Israeli army, embarked on a campaign to conquer Arab lands to enlarge the size of the land Israel had been granted under partition. It was after this campaign had been underway for several months, with the conquest of Haifa, Jaffa, part of Jerusalem and a large corridor between Israeli lands and Jerusalem, that the Arab armies became involved.

Some background to this offensive by the Haganah:
Quote

No Zionist can forgo the smallest portion of the Land of Israel. A Jewish state in part  is not an end, but a beginning ..... Our possession is important not only for itself ...  through this we increase our power, and every increase in power facilitates getting hold of the country in its entirety. Establishing a state .... will serve as a very potent lever in our historical effort to redeem the whole country
David Ben Gurion

Quote
The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever.
Menachim Begin, one day after the UN partition vote

Quote
In my heart, there was joy mixed with sadness: joy that the nations at last acknowledged that we are a nation with a state, and sadness that we lost half of the country, Judea and Samaria, and , in addition, that we have 400,000 Arabs.
David Ben Gurion

Quote
In the area allocated to the Jewish State there are not more than 520,000 Jews and about 350,000 non-Jews, mostly Arabs. Together with the Jews of Jerusalem, the total population of the Jewish State at the time of its establishment, will be about one million, including almost 40% non-Jews. Such a composition does not provide a stable basis for a Jewish State. This fact must be viewed in all its clarity and acuteness. With such a composition, there cannot even be absolute certainty that control will remain in the hands of the Jewish majority .... There can be no stable and strong Jewish state so long as it has a Jewish majority of only 60%
David Ben Gurion

Quote
The war will give us the land. The concept of 'ours' and 'not ours' are only concepts for peacetime, and during war they lose all their meaning
David Ben Gurion

Ben Gurion was the leader of the proto-Israeli state at that point, and it's first primeminister.
The thrust of Zionism, since the first settlement in the late 19th century, has been to colonise the land of Israel/Palestine, and drive out the people who live there.

Offline Ripsnort

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Crash cource in mid-east history (a must read for some)
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2002, 09:13:18 AM »
Nashwan, who sold the land to the Jews between 1900-1947?

Offline Eagler

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Crash cource in mid-east history (a must read for some)
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2002, 09:21:24 AM »
Hortlund

thanks for the info

seems the problem is those around Israel never learned the lesson or they have a very short memory...

the other problem is that they can't seem to get past yesteryear and look towards a productive and peaceful future .... easier for some to hate and kill than to love and forgive.
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Offline Hortlund

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Crash cource in mid-east history (a must read for some)
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2002, 09:31:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
It leaves out a hell of a lot of important facts.

We could go back to the begining of recorded time, before the Jews conquered Israel, then the Babylonians conquered it, then the Jews got it back, then the Macedonians got it, then the Romans, then the Byzantines, then the arabs, then the Crusaders, then the Arabs again, then the Turks.

However, rather than go back 2000 years to when it was last a Jewish country, look at the more recent history.

I agree. Because going back too far will only confuse things. And soon you will be crossing a line between "history" and "legend" and that line can be extremely hard to spot sometimes. Besides, arguments can easily become truly weird if someone wants to back up their position with arguments based on "the state of affairs around 500BC according to Herodotus".
Quote

1897 World Zionist conference meets and decides to set up a Jewish state in Palestine.

1917 Balfour Declaration. British government approves the following declaration:
His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country
(my emphasis)

From 1900 - 1947 there was continued Jewish immigration, and the setting up of Jewish councils etc to run Jewish affairs, seperate from the British administration. There was no attempt to integrate, as Zionism committed itself to a Jewish state.

The first census of the British mandate gave the population of Palestine, not including trans Jordan, as 589,000 muslims, 84,000 Jews, 71,000 Christians, 7,000 others.

By 1942 tht had increased to 995,000 Muslims, 484,000 Jews, 127,000 Christians

At the time of partition, Jews owned 6 - 8% of the land of Palestine, approx 20% of the cultivatable land. The remainder 93% of all land, 80% of cultivatable land, was owned by Arabs.

Well, to be perfectly honest, I dont see the relevance in this. So you point to a zionist movement, you point to a policy declaration in 1917 (during wwi, before the creation of Trans-Jordan etc)…so?

The exact demographic situation at the time of the partition is really of no interest. We can agree that there were more arabs in palestine at the time, and that these arabs owned more land than the jews. That is not in dispute. Neither is it relevant.
Quote

You've left out a bit between those two paragraphs.

Prior to the declaration of the state of Israel, the Haganah, the de facto Israeli army, embarked on a campaign to conquer Arab lands to enlarge the size of the land Israel had been granted under partition. It was after this campaign had been underway for several months, with the conquest of Haifa, Jaffa, part of Jerusalem and a large corridor between Israeli lands and Jerusalem, that the Arab armies became involved.

Before we get into this let me ask two questions.
1) Since there seems to be a difference of opinion regarding the activities of, and the existence of what you choose to call "the de facto Israeli army", I'd like to ask you for your sources.
And
2) Is it your opinion that the arab attack on Israel in 1948 was a defensive move, or a move to counter some Israeli attack? Is that what you are trying to say?
Quote

Ben Gurion was the leader of the proto-Israeli state at that point, and it's first primeminister.
The thrust of Zionism, since the first settlement in the late 19th century, has been to colonise the land of Israel/Palestine, and drive out the people who live there.

To save space I did not include all your quotes. Partly because I fail to see their relevance.  Are you trying to paint a picture of an aggressive Israel, striving to expand its borders and colonize the west bank? Is that what you are doing?

You are using some quotes from one or two persons, what is your point? I can dig up quotes that will sound just as bad or even worse by US presidents, British prime ministers, or Arab "leaders" but what would the point in that be? Would that change the fact that the US was attacked at Pearl Harbour or that England once owned Canada? What is the relevance of quoting one or two persons like that? I seriously cannot understand what you are trying to prove or say here.

Offline midnight Target

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Crash cource in mid-east history (a must read for some)
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2002, 09:49:06 AM »
Lesson for today....

No matter how hard you try to stick to the facts, there remains a minimum of 2 sides to every story.
Very interesting reading though, thanks Hortlund and Nashwan.

Offline Nashwan

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Crash cource in mid-east history (a must read for some)
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2002, 09:59:45 AM »
Quote
Nashwan, who sold the land to the Jews between 1900-1947?

The people who owned the land.

Quote
I agree. Because going back too far will only confuse things. And soon you will be crossing a line between "history" and "legend" and that line can be extremely hard to spot sometimes. Besides, arguments can easily become truly weird if someone wants to back up their position with arguments based on "the state of affairs around 500BC according to Herodotus".

I agree as well. However, some people seem to think 2000 year old history justifies modern actions. I don't believe it does, and I don't know of any legal system in the world that operates on that principle.

Quote
Before we get into this let me ask two questions.
1) Since there seems to be a difference of opinion regarding the activities of, and the existence of what you choose to call "the de facto Israeli army", I'd like to ask you for your sources.

The bald facts, eg the conquest of Haifa, Jaffa, corridor to Jerusalem etc can be found on the IDF's website. The full details can be found on several Israeli sites detailing the 20th century history of Israel, and in numerous books.

The facts aren't really in dispute, just the intrepretation.

Quote
2) Is it your opinion that the arab attack on Israel in 1948 was a defensive move, or a move to counter some Israeli attack? Is that what you are trying to say?

Is it your intrepretation that the Arab attack on Israel was an aggresive move, and that the prior Israeli attack on the Arabs was a defensive move?

I am trying to point out that the common view, as detailed by Hollywood, and various books written from an Israeli point of view, is wrong. The context of both sides actions was that Israel was intent on expanding it's borders, the Arab states intent on either stopping them, or crushing Israel. I suspect the latter.

Quote
To save space I did not include all your quotes. Partly because I fail to see their relevance. Are you trying to paint a picture of an aggressive Israel, striving to expand its borders and colonize the west bank? Is that what you are doing?

Yes. The Jews had a country of their own 2000 years ago. The Romans took it from them, and they didn't have a country until 1948.

In the late 19th century, various Jews decided they wanted a country again, and set up taking one by force. Is their any other intrepretation that could be put on it?

Quote
You are using some quotes from one or two persons, what is your point? I can dig up quotes that will sound just as bad or even worse by US presidents, British prime ministers, or Arab "leaders" but what would the point in that be?

The history of the world is one of conquest, colonistaion, ethnic cleansing. All countries have done it, it's just times have moved on, and it's not really seen as aceptable to do it anymore, unless the country is Israel.

Those quotes come from two Israeli prime ministers, including the first Israeli prime minister. They are intended to show that Israel is intent on colonising and absorbing the West Bank. I can find others from other Israeli prime ministers, including the current one, if you like.

Quote
Would that change the fact that the US was attacked at Pearl Harbour or that England once owned Canada? What is the relevance of quoting one or two persons like that? I seriously cannot understand what you are trying to prove or say here.

I can't understand what you are trying to say either.

My basic point is that taking territory from your neighbours, and ethnically cleansing the population from it, is wrong.

Your point is what, exactly? That anything Israel chooses to do is fine? That if it wants more land it should just take it?

Offline Ripsnort

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Crash cource in mid-east history (a must read for some)
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2002, 10:01:00 AM »
And Nashwan, the people who owned the land, were Arabs?

Offline Nashwan

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Crash cource in mid-east history (a must read for some)
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2002, 10:23:56 AM »
Mainly yes. Why, where are you going with this?

Offline Ripsnort

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Crash cource in mid-east history (a must read for some)
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2002, 10:43:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
Mainly yes. Why, where are you going with this?


No where, you already went there for me. :)