Author Topic: Gunnery Lethality (Read 1029 times)

hblair · « **on:** May 03, 2002, 09:16:20 AM »

While I have no doubt that HTC has their numbers as close to correct in the AH gunnery lethality as they know how, many of us have been flying these simms longer than the war lasted. We have become better with the guns than the WWII aces were.

Should we turn down lethality 10-15% to more realistically simulate WWII air combat? (that is to say, to lessen the chance of a very short burst from 500 yds to inflict critical damage)

Opinions?

Duedel · « **Reply #1 on:** May 03, 2002, 09:34:26 AM »

Hmm ... interesting idea but "we" are not the majority. Many pilots in AH are newbies with a "bad" gunnery and therefore i think it is good as it is.

Apache · « **Reply #2 on:** May 03, 2002, 09:37:37 AM »

I've been wondering about this as well HB. Especially when someone from WB tries out AH, then goes back to WB talking about the lethality. Thats not a bad thing, IMHO. There is a difference. If you're shooting reduced rounds then shoot rounds with more punch, or vice versa, of course you're going to see a difference.

Which one is right? Which one is on the numbers? Do both already have an adjustment in as a game concession? I haven't a clue.

Personally, if we had to have a concession, I would rather go with reduced instead of increased.

Man, glad I'm just a systems analyst. Attempting to please this many people would make the rest of my hair fall out, lol.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #3 on:** May 03, 2002, 09:44:56 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Apache

Man, glad I'm just a systems analyst. Attempting to please this many people would make the rest of my hair fall out, lol.

My product has to please 10,000 engineers and 20,000 technical drafters, from Moscow to Alabama.

(Seen my hair lately?)

Duedel · « **Reply #4 on:** May 03, 2002, 09:49:30 AM »

Think about how many whines HT will get if the lethality is not like the one in RL:

"Ahhmmm ... this really is not a whine (I swear) but why do i need 5x20mm rounds to blow the wing off from this bloody spit dweeb when in RL 3 rounds will make him explode"

Hortlund · « **Reply #5 on:** May 03, 2002, 09:53:25 AM »

Too lethal?

What did Marseille use? 15 rounds per kill on average? And that was with crappy guns too.

hblair · « **Reply #6 on:** May 03, 2002, 09:58:28 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hortlund
Too lethal?

What did Marseille use? 15 rounds per kill on average? And that was with crappy guns too.

And at what range was Marseille so famous for getting his kills?

Taiaha · « **Reply #7 on:** May 03, 2002, 10:03:29 AM »

Interesting idea. As one who is, shall we say, in no danger of inhabiting the AH fighter ace elite, let me just say that some of us need every bit of lethality we can get!

I don't see any difference in lethality between WB and AH. Wings and tails still seem to come of with satisfying regularity in both sims.

I do notice a difference in round weight. The 30mm in AH, for example, seems to fly like 50 cal. In WB it has a drop so substantial you really have to be in close and aim quite high to hit. (And before someone takes the trouble to kindly look up my stats and suggest that I should become more proficient with this gunnery model before I go making suggestions--this happened last time I made this observation--let me say this is not about helping me get more kills. If anything, it would do the reverse! It's just about one little extra element of realism).

However, it may also be true that the bullet drop may only appear greater in WB. They have a pretty good connection, and arenas are virtually empty. The lag effects in AH will, I'm sure, distort my perception of the rounds' behavior. But I still have my doubts about that 30mm!

Wanker · « **Reply #8 on:** May 03, 2002, 10:11:59 AM »

Quote

Should we turn down lethality 10-15% to more realistically simulate WWII air combat? (that is to say, to lessen the chance of a very short burst from 500 yds to inflict critical damage)

No. While I think the lethality is in general a bit too high, I'd rather live with what we have, rather than experience the disatrous "tweaking of the gunnery model" that happened over at IMOL after the HTC folks left.

What an experience that was!

Kuben · « **Reply #9 on:** May 03, 2002, 10:40:44 AM »

I don't think it is to lethal at all. Have you any idea what a cannon round would do to a plane, just one?
Also, imagine a .50 cal bullet ripping into your plane, just one would do so much freaking damage it would make a mechanic cry.

Oh and btw - the idea of a cannon round is that range shouldn't matter much as long as it hits, it explodes and tears the snot out of the aircraft. Also, a .50 cal was designed to fire up to a mile so 500 measly yards shouldn't matter at all. To me HTC has the lethality modeled pretty accurately.

Note: after re-reading the above two paragraphs it sound like I'm saying a .50 cal and a cannon round are the same, I know they are not and just puked two thoughts onto the paper quickly because I'm at work and don't have lots of time. hehehe

Also, Marseille was using 15 rounds per kill and was completely devistating his opponents aircraft. I know he got in close before he fired but that was only to ensure those 15 rounds all hit, not how effective each round was. IMO.

HTC, don't change a thing.

Kuben

Octavius · « **Reply #10 on:** May 03, 2002, 10:46:19 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hortlund
Too lethal?

What did Marseille use? 15 rounds per kill on average? And that was with crappy guns too.

Marseille wasnt an ace, he was a freak of nature. Anyone else even come close to that type of accuracy?

Janov · « **Reply #11 on:** May 03, 2002, 10:54:51 AM »

I think it would yield a more rewarding gameplay to turn down lethality 10-15%. There isnt a plane in the MA (except maybe the JU88) that can´t down any fighter with a 0.5 sec burst (so it seems). Why even have different gun-loadouts? Every plane will kill every other plane very rapidly, 20mms, 30mms or just MGs, doesn´t matter. I usually leave all the guns on ground that I can, because maneuverability is paramount, once you can hit the enemy it doesn´t matter how many rounds or what caliber you can shoot per second. In WB I used to get hit, and be able to limp home, here it very rarerly happens. If I get hit, I usually go down. Agreed, I may just be a lousy pilot, but thats my opinion.

Maybe a lot of kills in WW2 were made with very few rounds, but then many kills were made against unsuspecting targets, being surprised by the approaching foe. That also very rarely happens in the MA, with almost unlimited rearviewing ability in most fighters.
Reward the people taking the heavy, less maneuverable planes with the extra punch by turning down all guns by the same amount. Just my opinion.

Litjan

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #12 on:** May 03, 2002, 10:59:18 AM »

Take up a SpitI or HurriI Janov, you'll find out that it takes a good 3 second pelting to slightly damage a plane.

The heavier caliber weapons were designed for one reason: to down enemy fighters as quickly as possible. So naturally, larger caliber weapons will do more damage in a single pass than a 8x.303 winged Spitfire.

It only makes sense... now if some other issues were looked at-> horizontal/vertical stablizers being blow off with a single 20mm on planes like the Jug.. or that you can hit only ONE side of the tail (ie: left horiz stab) and watch it fall away... then a split second later the other half comes off.... not due to lag but probably because the damage is somehow being applied to the other side....

Some planes are just too "weak", it ain't the weapons.
-SW

Yeager · « **Reply #13 on:** May 03, 2002, 11:04:36 AM »

hblair...why bother?

AKA: Relax its just a (insert expletive) game.

hblair · « **Reply #14 on:** May 03, 2002, 11:13:22 AM »

I was just wondering what you guys thought yeager. I read a thread today on AGW about the lethality in AH, and I gotta admit I had a tough time getting used to it myself. I'm not strongly opinionated either way. But from what I've read about first hand accounts, shooting a plane down from 500 yds + with 50 cals just didn't happen. Just kicking thoughts around is all.