Author Topic: Gunnery Lethality  (Read 1092 times)

Offline Dead Man Flying

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Gunnery Lethality
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2002, 07:27:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by funkedup
Poopy I'm going home in about 15 minutes.  Grab a 202 and I'll grab a Hurri I and we'll have one of them fights.  :)


You aren't dueling unless you both take 202s equipped with two machine guns.  If that fight doesn't end with one or the other of you augering before someone is shot down, you're doing something wrong.  :)

-- Todd/Leviathn

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2002, 07:39:28 PM »
I think the answer lies in just damage modeling.
 
 Effects of various cannon-hit results on various parts of the plane, rather than just 'hit point up = structure failure'

Offline Bluedog

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« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2002, 08:04:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKSWulfe


I believe this only happened to early model P51s.. specifically the P51B, this was fixed in the field with an ammo canister being put underneath the gun belts. By the D model it was completely fixed.

But the gun overheating/jamming thing.. I agree with that.
-SW


IIRC it was also a problem with the earlier mountings of Hispano cannon on Spitfires etc...perhaps even for the same reason as the early probs in the 'Stang, ie, the guns where mounted 'tilted' to one side so as to allow them to fit in a small space??
This made ammo feed unreliable when pulling G.
Of course, I could be way wrong, but I just have this vague memory of reading about that somewheres.

Blue

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2002, 08:41:02 PM »
Yer kidding right JAB?

Offline Toad

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« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2002, 09:02:09 PM »
I can see there's a lot of guys here that never spent (wasted?) many of their youthful afternoons shooting .30-06 caliber rifles loaded with surplus military ball ammo at old abandoned cars at ranges up to 300-500 yards.

I assure you, an old 50's Chevy has MUCH thicker steel than the thin aluminum on a WW2 aircraft. .30 Military ball would whistle right through car doors, in one side and out the other. Hydraulic lines, control cables, fuel lines, fuel tanks.. like wet tissue paper.

... and this is rilfe caliber ammo.

A .50 BMG is like superman on steroids in a 'roid rage compared to a rifle caliber round.

Basically, some folks think it's too easy to shoot things down in AH. They want the fight to "last longer" and are apparently willing to pork any data necessary to achieve this end.

Stick to what the rounds actually did in trajectory, energy, velocity and all the related "known" factors.

Then, as Modas said, you do the best you can with the damage model.. and as I just said, I personally believe there's a lot of you folks that don't know what military ball ammo will do to a lightly built WW2 fighter that's primarily aluminum and lighter metals.

My brother-in-law just shot a bolt action .50 loaded with old military AP ammo at a 1" steel plate hanging from chains at 100 yards. One inch steel plate. He aimed fired and the plate did not move at all.. nothing.. thought he missed. He shot again.. same thing. He's a proficient rifle shot, so he walked out to the plate. Two .50 holes clean through it. Went through so easily, they didn't even make the plate move (bout 100lbs of steel in the plate). He said the holes were "clean".. no slag, no rips, tears, edges.

Will heavy MG crack any engine block in any WW2 fighter? Yep. Will it go through hardened armor plate at close ranges? Yep. Will it go through plexiglass? Yep, form a long, long, long range.

Don't underestimate the pentration of even rifle rounds on thin aluminum.. even at long ranges.
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Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #50 on: May 03, 2002, 09:26:36 PM »
So funked, you believe you're more skilled in A2A gunnery than actual pilots just because you play a computer game?

J_A_B

Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2002, 10:11:03 PM »
JAB
IMHO, most of us are far better shots at our simulated craft than WWII pilots were in real life.  Those who have been playing awhile have shot down thousands of planes and have fired millions of rounds.  No one in WWII had the opportunity to practice as much as we do, not even a fraction.  A few articles and books that I have read cite pilots who first fired the guns in their planes ever, at enemy aircraft during their first combat experience.  A few firing attacks at tow sleeves and a few straffing runs on ground targets was all the practice that many pilots ever had, and some never had practice.

How would real WWII pilots do in AH?  They would probably kick our butts if they had some practice, they were the cream of the crop after all.  Only the best of tons of applicants made it through flight school and were assigned to fighters.  
We are better than RL pilots only because we have a ton of practice.  Because of our constant drilling and practice we ordinary folk can do extraordinary things somewhat consistently.

eskimo

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2002, 10:30:10 PM »
Sorry Jab but I gotta disagree.  Yup its a game, but its awful close to what your gonna see in real life.

You ever flown a WWII plane? I have.

3 Dimensional wing shooting is a skill developed thru practice. You telling me someone who skeet shoots won't be able to hunt geese? not the same, but awful damn close.

Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2002, 10:39:00 PM »
So by the same line of thought, since I'm good at GPL, I'm a better racecar driver than Mario Andretti?

Cool!

So not only am I a better pilot than any real ace, I'm also a better driver than any racecar driver.....and so on and so forth

Um, don't you see a problem with that line of thought?

Sorry Verm, but the only thing being good at AH does is make you good at AH.  Eskimo got it right on--we have more experience in AH than real pilots had in the real thing.    However, experience in one doesn't translate into being automatically good at the other.

The farthest I'd go is I'd say being good at AH might be an indicator of HOW good a fighter pilot you'd be, given enough practice in the real thing.  But being an "armchair ace" doesn't mean you could just hop into a F4U and kill anything.

J_A_B

Offline -ammo-

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« Reply #54 on: May 03, 2002, 10:55:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by poopster
Let me wade here being a newbie, and my comments are on AGW concerning gunnery..



Funk, where ya been, that was changed last release. Marked improvement in the fifties and smaller MG rounds, but that's another story.... ( you know how it goes over there ;) )

Damage model and gunnery lethality is a scale that no one is sure is right. It's objective, and has alot to do with what can be done in a sim.

My observations in the this game so far ( a whole week :D ) is that the lethality setting combined with the damage model favor bang bang your dead here. I'm not saying that is bad.

I am saying that bang bang your dead isn't what I strive for. Hell I like putting butts up on my wall as much as anyone as I've stated in one of my first posts.

In my little world, where a flight sim becomes MORE than just a game is when you get into a white knuckled fight with a con, or cons that lasts 5 minutes. From 5km to the deck, flyin on the edge the bag of tricks on the table....all out FIGHT.

So far I don't find that possible here. It's ping and your looking a sheep.

Who's accurate ?? Who knows.

The ability to decide to wade in, 1 on 1 coalit, do the ACM thing, break into a sweat, get tense, fly the edge and have a GREAT FIGHT regardless of outcome is what get's my juices flowing.

And so far, I don't think that's possible here. I might be wrong, wouldn't be the first time :)

I kill and die WAY to easily here. In my meager score of kills there is only one, that I KNEW I killed. The rest were on the score card when I ended the flight. That doesn't make sense to me.

I see endless limited engagements, but no real "fights"

The great fights I've had are in my memory bank. They are special and don't happen that often. Prolly a 50 50 mix of wins and losses.

I hope there are some here. But so far, I don't think it's possible.

But it ain't a bad thing. I understand people liking the current settings and really don't have a problem with it.

Ain't gonna change because it doesn't fit "my" preferences :)

nopoop


WHile the guns on AH AC are certainly more lethal than the WB's AC, ACM does matter:) Yankin and bankin iksnt the answer as is its more about managing your energy. Same in WB's I am sure (at least it was when I flew there). In WB's you didnt mind so much getting pinged in a furball, or in a 1 on 1, because you knew that you had a good chance of reversing the roles and being the guy behind your opponent.  In AH, the goal should be more to stay out of those situations:)
Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline poopster

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« Reply #55 on: May 03, 2002, 11:45:58 PM »
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the goal should be more to stay out of those situations


Ammo I couldn't agree with you more. Many a tour doing just that,  being the "Souless Dix" :)

But as a steady diet, it does get....well....boring.

Nuthin better than strappin it up and seein what you can do. But in a very lethal envirement that option is not there. Is that bad ?? I don't know one way or the other.

For me, it takes away options. As I said before there is only a couple of kills I've had the last week that I KNEW I HIT HIM GOOD. The rest are surprises when I land. I'm killin and not even knowing it :confused:

I enjoy flying smart, but I also like getting into it when the urge strikes. A tat for tat is pretty hard to find when the tat is a TAT ;)

It's all in what one is looking for, as always.

Had my first "fight" tonight. Me in a La7 for the first time and my opponent in a 190. :)

In a "fight" I'm finding that the ability to fly with the blackout hole very small is a requirement..

Every game has it's "quirks"

;)

Gave me a Salute', gave him one back.

It was a fight :D

nopoop

Offline Citabria

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« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2002, 01:36:02 AM »
no

its already hard enough to get kills w the 202
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline illo

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« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2002, 05:15:59 AM »
I had no problems hitting enemies at 1000yards when flying my first sorties in AH.

It's not about practice as much as you think. Ah gunnery is so freaking easy!

Ofcourse i've flown WB before but it's really different thing. In AH i found it's not wasting ammo to shoot from 800yards with 190. And did it quite regulargly. In WB i allways go under 100yards before i open fire. Only in nice deflection shots i open up from 400-500yards.

AH is great sim imo, with best FMs ever. But do you really think DM is such realistic? In any case i see DM in AH as very simple one.  You can rip off wings with high deflection shots with 50cal. Explain to me how it happens real life.
Also with Hispanos same should mostly result little 2cm hole in wing and explosion outside airframe because of slow fusing which enables better penetration for clean 6 shots. How usual it is to see wing/tail being ripped off in guncam of .50cal real birds? Imo AH DM feels just simple "energy" based. Hit 1 part with enough energy and it falls totally off. If not enough hits there is no damage at all.

Well..just my opinions. Also laser range finder type icons in AH really ease gunnery at range.

Also why MG/FF M is less powerful (per hit) as MG151/20 in AH?

Offline AKcurly

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« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2002, 05:47:06 AM »
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Originally posted by hblair
I was just wondering what you guys thought yeager. I read a thread today on AGW about the lethality in AH, and I gotta admit I had a tough time getting used to it myself. I'm not strongly opinionated either way. But from what I've read about first hand accounts, shooting a plane down from 500 yds + with 50 cals just didn't happen. Just kicking thoughts around is all.

Well, Chuck Yeager reported killing a 109 at 600 yards while flying a 4 gun pony.  So yes, it did happen.

curly

Offline BUG_EAF322

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« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2002, 07:22:28 AM »
No No No i am already a bad shot
I mostly have to fly the crap out off myself to get a shot.
And than i don't get sudden blow ups like the FW and other cannoned two ping wonder planes.

so gunnery is the most frustrating part already for me
yeah and i fly AH from 1.02
still once a badshot always a bad shot