Author Topic: Gunnery Lethality (Read 1268 times)

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #30 on:** May 03, 2002, 12:56:39 PM »

Just to add to what the guys have been saying about us having more practice...

I've been playing air combat games since... well Red Baron... pretty much atleast an hour a day for close to.... 9-10 years now?

That's well over 4 times the practice (and being able to do whatever manuever/risky thing I want without worry of dying) than any WWII combat pilot ever had.

As time goes on, you'll find guys becoming more and more "elite" as they get years of non stop practice.

But to make a concession for the few who are good (shots), while the majority are bad (shots) seems more like a handicap to the majority.

Just my opinion.
-SW

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #31 on:** May 03, 2002, 01:01:35 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by -ammo-
Its the ICONS! Without those, your gunnery would suffer considerably. With those, we learn when to shoot, and we know exactly the orientation of the EA is. The snapshot is effective because of that.

Not true, it just requires a more realistic approach... well by WWII standards.. you have to close in till they fill your windscreen and then let your bullets fly.

Right now we know what ranges they are and can snap a burst without care.

I fly Il-2 (I know I know... just hear me out) on servers with both icons on and off. With them on, I find it easier to get a bead on them at certain ranges because I know about the right lead I need at those ranges.

But when I play servers with icons off (either melee or coop), I find myself have to get in a LOT closer to make those shots count.

Of course, these are for the most part in turning dogfights. In planes like the 190 with it's 4 cannons, I can still be pretty far out (I estimate 500yards or meters.. whatever they go by there) and land shots that will result in a severed wing.

But it's all relative, I've got the experience to know if I missed before the bullets hit the plane.
-SW

AKcurly · « **Reply #32 on:** May 03, 2002, 01:24:18 PM »

I thought about this as I drove to work and I was able to reach only one conclusion: HBlair has a carpet bagger in his family tree! Bah!!

curly

Yeager · « **Reply #33 on:** May 03, 2002, 01:34:21 PM »

Eskimo where you been?

This is a game. You guys need to understand its just a friggen game. The ballistics lethality is designed to perform how pyro and dale think it should perform in order to be as much fun as a game can be.

IL2 gunnery when set to realistic is far more difficult than AH and theres the rub. Most people currently gaming in AH would NOT be happy with IL2s realistic ballistics settings.

AH s designed to be FUN damnit!

Do you hear me? Fun! Yeah! thats right FUN.......
FUN FUN FUN!!!!!

FUN HAHA FUN ARGHHH !!!!!.......
HAHA
HAHAHAHA
FUN

Fun
hehehe

fUN
hahaha

FuN
hohoho

fUn

ok ok

Apache · « **Reply #34 on:** May 03, 2002, 01:45:06 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Yeager
Eskimo where you been?

This is a game. You guys need to understand its just a friggen game. The ballistics lethality is designed to perform how pyro and dale think it should perform in order to be as much fun as a game can be.

IL2 gunnery when set to realistic is far more difficult than AH and theres the rub. Most people currently gaming in AH would NOT be happy with IL2s realistic ballistics settings.

AH s designed to be FUN damnit!

Do you hear me? Fun! Yeah! thats right FUN.......
FUN FUN FUN!!!!!

FUN HAHA FUN ARGHHH !!!!!.......
HAHA
HAHAHAHA
FUN

Fun
hehehe

fUN
hahaha

FuN
hohoho

fUn

ok ok

Am I reading betwixt the lines here correctly? Are you saying AH gunnery is not modeled "realisitically"? I don't know if it is or not. Just worndering if you know something the rest of us don't.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #35 on:** May 03, 2002, 01:49:26 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Yeager

Do you hear me? Fun! Yeah! thats right FUN.......
FUN FUN FUN!!!!!

FUN HAHA FUN ARGHHH !!!!!.......
HAHA
HAHAHAHA
FUN

Fun
hehehe

fUN
hahaha

FuN
hohoho

fUn

ok ok

This image crossed my mind as I read Yeagers post...

Yeager · « **Reply #36 on:** May 03, 2002, 02:18:28 PM »

Ripsnort: Correct

Apache: From everything that I know AH has a damned good ballistics model. It has been designed to (among many things) allow lethality to be adjusted within arenas (or H2H sessions).

It is the MA lethality settings that I was referring to in comparrison to IL2 realism settings. The MA lethality is set for what HTC consider maximum playability (gameplay). Not maximum realism. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive but might as well be imo.

I love IL2 but for online play AH has it beat for pure easy fun.

funkedup · « **Reply #37 on:** May 03, 2002, 02:20:01 PM »

Funny thing is I read all these comments about "laser guns" in AH and I get the same (or worse) hit percentages here than I did in WB.

As far as real world lethality, I really have no idea. There is not sufficient experimental data to make a useful quantitative comparison. Numbers of hits required to get kills seem to be pretty close to what I've read and heard from WW2 pilot anectdotes. Certainly in WW2 a quick bounce and a kill was much more common than a prolonged dogfight. So AH seems about right.

Remember, if you decrease weapon effectiveness you increase the effectiveness of maneuver warp tactics. And since WB 2.6 came out that's what most WB fights have become. He with the best microwarps wins.

I think the big difference in player perception is that WB models only half the bullets and ammo load and half the rate of fire. So all the guns in WB are a bit crippled.

Reasons it's easier to kill in sims than in real life:
1. No physiological effects.
2. Easy to see if you hit (hit sprites).
3. Range Icon.
4. Many of us have thousands of times more trigger time than any fighter pilot in history.

And for AH there is an additional cheesy factor: You can see hit sprites through the instrument panel. I get kills all the time on planes that are hidden under my nose. The bug has been here since the inception of hit sprites, so I assume it is one of those bugs that Dale views as a feature.

funkedup · « **Reply #38 on:** May 03, 2002, 02:22:00 PM »

About Il-2:
I get kills at the same ranges and deflections in Il-2 as I do in AH. It just took a while to get used to the fact that you can't see your tracers or hits as clearly. Once you learn how to spot your rounds, shooting in either sim is very similar.

eskimo2 · « **Reply #39 on:** May 03, 2002, 03:23:30 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Yeager
Eskimo where you been?

This is a game. You guys need to understand its just a friggen game. The ballistics lethality is designed to perform how pyro and dale think it should perform in order to be as much fun as a game can be.

IL2 gunnery when set to realistic is far more difficult than AH and theres the rub. Most people currently gaming in AH would NOT be happy with IL2s realistic ballistics settings.

AH s designed to be FUN damnit!

Do you hear me? Fun! Yeah! thats right FUN.......
FUN FUN FUN!!!!!

FUN HAHA FUN ARGHHH !!!!!.......
HAHA
HAHAHAHA
FUN

Fun
hehehe

fUN
hahaha

FuN
hohoho

fUn

ok ok

Yeager,
I've got to agree with Apache on this one...
How do you know what is accurate?

Game-play concessions should be and are geared toward removing the hours, days, weeks, months and even years of tedium and boredom that most fighter pilots experienced in WWII. The RL danger, horror and fear are also inherently removed. I think most folks want realistic physics minus the RL problems such as: mechanical breakdowns, impossible weather and perhaps issues such as engine management (I.E. carb heat, mixture etc.) and so on... IMO, most sim pilots also want better and more information as a game-play concession in order to promote engagements (communication, radar, etc).
If an AH plane had a ROC, top speed or turn rate that was not realistic, I think most folks would want it "fixed" toward reality. IMO, the same can be said about the damage model or gunnery.

If realistic gunnery means that we can only kill a maximum of 3 planes per sortie instead of 10, so be it. We will adjust how we fly and shoot and still have plenty of fun.

eskimo

Viper17 · « **Reply #40 on:** May 03, 2002, 03:53:19 PM »

What are you guys talking bout. I kill stuf all the time with the MG's on a 109E. I aim for the.........well im not telling its my secret:D

Vermillion · « **Reply #41 on:** May 03, 2002, 04:31:10 PM »

No, I think its a bad idea. Just because most of our pilots are better shots than real WWII pilots, its because we have thousands and thousands of more trigger time.

poopster · « **Reply #42 on:** May 03, 2002, 06:34:35 PM »

Let me wade here being a newbie, and my comments are on AGW concerning gunnery..

Quote

WB models only half the bullets and ammo load and half the rate of fire. So all the guns in WB are a bit crippled.

Funk, where ya been, that was changed last release. Marked improvement in the fifties and smaller MG rounds, but that's another story.... ( you know how it goes over there

)

Damage model and gunnery lethality is a scale that no one is sure is right. It's objective, and has alot to do with what can be done in a sim.

My observations in the this game so far ( a whole week

) is that the lethality setting combined with the damage model favor bang bang your dead here. I'm not saying that is bad.

I am saying that bang bang your dead isn't what I strive for. Hell I like putting butts up on my wall as much as anyone as I've stated in one of my first posts.

In my little world, where a flight sim becomes MORE than just a game is when you get into a white knuckled fight with a con, or cons that lasts 5 minutes. From 5km to the deck, flyin on the edge the bag of tricks on the table....all out FIGHT.

So far I don't find that possible here. It's ping and your looking a sheep.

Who's accurate ?? Who knows.

The ability to decide to wade in, 1 on 1 coalit, do the ACM thing, break into a sweat, get tense, fly the edge and have a GREAT FIGHT regardless of outcome is what get's my juices flowing.

And so far, I don't think that's possible here. I might be wrong, wouldn't be the first time

I kill and die WAY to easily here. In my meager score of kills there is only one, that I KNEW I killed. The rest were on the score card when I ended the flight. That doesn't make sense to me.

I see endless limited engagements, but no real "fights"

The great fights I've had are in my memory bank. They are special and don't happen that often. Prolly a 50 50 mix of wins and losses.

I hope there are some here. But so far, I don't think it's possible.

But it ain't a bad thing. I understand people liking the current settings and really don't have a problem with it.

Ain't gonna change because it doesn't fit "my" preferences

nopoop

funkedup · « **Reply #43 on:** May 03, 2002, 06:48:36 PM »

Poopy I'm going home in about 15 minutes. Grab a 202 and I'll grab a Hurri I and we'll have one of them fights.

J_A_B · « **Reply #44 on:** May 03, 2002, 07:25:45 PM »

"Just because most of our pilots are better shots than real WWII pilots, its because we have thousands and thousands of more trigger time."

My playing a computer game doesn't make me a better shot than a fighter pilot. I hope you don't honestly think it does.

J_A_B