Originally posted by banana
Nath, I'm pleasantly surprised that you know the music of Wagner, Brahms and Schubert.
But you do realize that your statement above is somewhat of an oxy-moron, in that those three certainly did not share a common musical ideology. In fact, Schubert was dead before Wagner and Brahms became famous in the musical world. Since Schubert was best known for being a prolific master at composing "lied"(songs), I'm trying to think of any orchestral music from him that was similar to any in the latest Star Wars film.
And while Brahms and Wagner were peers, age-wise....they couldn't have been more far apart musically. In fact, those two giants of the late Romantic classical music era caused a rift in musical society in Europe. The Brahms camp was conservative, using dissonance sparingly, while the Wagner camp were the bad boys of mid-late 19th century music. Richard Wagner was arguably the most influencial composer in the history of Western Music, and combined with Franz Liszt, those two made up the "Weimar" school of musical thought, expousing radical chord structures and the use of Leitmotif's and "Program music".
But I agree with you about the "Lord of the Rings" analogy. Wagner was already doing "Lord of the Ring's" way back in the 1860's, only he called it "Der Ring des Niebelungen". 
I'm well aware of the competition that existed between the Brahmsians and Wagnerians during the middle/late Romantic period--as well as how it affected 20th century music. You must remember that what I originally wrote is that I notice very much of Wagner's, Brahms's, and Schubert's music in William's(mostly speaking of form and melodies); "Music by, W, B, and S." Now that has nothing to do with at which time Schubert lived, nor that Brahms's and Wagner's styles were polar opposites. William's is free to use work from any other previous composer, but being an irreverent cribber isn't something that I admire. Also, Schubert was not only the most genius composer of lieder (followed by Schumann and Brahms) but he was also one of the greatest orchestrators. I think you are missing out on his later symphonies, namely the 8th(Unfinished) and 9th--delightful works of lyrical Classicism, which influenced Brahms greatly.
In regards to the Wagner and Liszt companionship, it is true they were rebels; Liszt's invention of the symphonic poem, as well his ardent nationalism (which were realized in his Hungarian Rhapsodies as well as his overall use of folk themes) greatly influenced predecessors like Hector Berlioz and his Symphonie Fantasique, as well as Bedrich Smetana's also highly influencial Czech nationalism--resulting in Dvorak, and the later great Bella Bartok. Also don't forget Brahms's Hungarian Dances, not only are they nationalistic, but they also have very similar elements comparable to the Wagner and Liszt styles; I strongly believe that Brahms's Hungarian Dances are some of his finest works--especially if you like woodwinds and brass. Wagner is an interesting case, there is no doubt that he was a genius of orchestration--but most of his great orchestral works were written for his early operas--or his later music-dramas, as he liked to call them; The Ring of the Nibelungen cycle is one example of his musical-dramas--The Valkyrie is the second out of the four musical-dramas which form the whole of The Ring. A lot of his styles were so radical with the use of excessive modulation, incomplete cadences, dissonant chords, terraced dynamics, as well as many many other expressionist ideas, that he was probably the major influence of the early 20th century etiolation of music with acidic dissonance. It must be remembered that most of Wagner's works were done to accompany the drama on stage. Wagner looked to the opera as a place where people could be confounded with great emotion--and his plan was to reach this goal by making the orchestra just as important as the libretto, cast, and scenery. The result were works like Ride of the Valkyries (Ace III, Scene I of
Die Walküre), the preludes to Act I and III of Lohengrin, etc... [edit]it is hard to say what Wagner's work would be like if the majority of it were not solely designed to accompany the drama--whats sure is that the compositions he created did this job perfectly. And they were the best possible compositions for that job.[edit]
Karl Weber's
Die Freischütz is said to have beeen Wagner's main influence in creation of his distinctive operatic
leitmotifs;(leading motives) which were the accompaniment to the drama of short musical ideas for characters, places, or things. Leitmotif were rarely used outside opera but today can be heard in William's compositions.
Thus it can be said that Wagner was highly influencial to the likes of expressionists Arnold Schoenburg and Igor Stravinsky--both of whom, in their early careers, were amazing exponents of dissonance. However, I don't agree on the thought that Wagner was the most influencial composer of ALL Western music; that title would probably be best suited for the likes of Bach or Beethoven. Bach was vital in perfecting all sorts of music, bringing polyphony to its high point, and perpetuating grealy the evolution of the orchestra. Beethoven's influence stretched from new and radical ideas in music, and also in the role of the composer in society. He was one of the first composers to work freely, and not under the influence of a patron, such as was neccessary in earlier times. This social status of Beethoven allowed him to create works that came from his own needs and desires, instead of what his patron would have asked him to compose--like in earlier times. It was this individuality that influenced later composers to be more experimental--which probably led to styles like Wagner and Liszt's... although as usual there were other political changes during the turn of the 19th century in Europe that caused more composers to be freelance instead of having to work under patrons--a system which was diminishing.
Sheesh Nath, why don't you just outright call John Williams anti-semitic. That is what you're getting at, aren't you?
Umm... I have no idea where this came from, but, no.
banana Johnson is Right!!
Game, Set, Match
Cobra
Too funny... the typical cheerleader comes in and rides on someone elses coattails to try and get at me. And banana wasn't even trying to challenge me; it seemed more like he was just starting a conversation... which I respect.
