with new buff formation tool, time to "fix" their guns..

[Kaz]

well said mr Wabbit

[Revvin]

Yes maybe I am biased but I've never asked for up-rated bomber guns but I have asked a few times for a bombsight system that requires a little skill and time to set up and now we are finally getting it. I never asked for AI bombers either but with the drift and reduced accuracy carpet bombing from a number of buffs will be the only way of taking down targets...as it should be but there are not that many bomber jocks out there to make up sufficient numbers night after night so it looks like this is HT's way of fixing this. I enjoy nursing damaged bombers home as part of my time in the arena's so I don't want to be untouchable.

I'm all for more realism for every part of the sim not just the bombers and I'll listen to anyone making a good point but take a look at the first post in this thread:

i think, no fighter pilot/s will attack a 4buff formation with the
current "ueber" buff gun settings.

HT, pls make them realistic in 1.10

Hardly a constructive argument is it?

I think we should have more faith in HTC and a little more patience. HT, Pyro and the other guys have been around the block more than a few times and know what they are doing. Lets see what v1.10 brings, see exactly how this all pans out when we can see it for ourselves. Show a little patience and give it a fair go and then we can go about asking for things to be tweaked.

[Steven]

I'm actually looking forward to seeing this played out.  I do wonder how a single-gunner in a 4-buff formation will cope.  Say you are the gunner in the lead buff yet the trailing buff is attacked.  Do you fire at a range of D2.0 which puts the trailing buff auto-guns in range and they fire?  If dispersion is modeled, how does this impact the aim then?  I'm sure there will be give-and-takes, and I'm interested in seeing how this plays out.

[Kaz]

read the latest announcement it explains alot

[Wotan]

the way i read it is that for the most part the 4 buff formation will have to fly pretty straight. No more 75 degree bank turns using rudder while in the gunner position.

this give the fighters a much easier time positioning themselves for a pass.

Damaged buffs will fall out of formation. While in formatoon the pilot/gunner will have to switch gun postions to get a good track. if you attack and make the gunner "jump around" positions then he will be less likely to track you. There will also be an interupter so the guns wont fire through the plane and hopefully killshooter will be in effect as well.

Damaged buffs out of formation will  be ez pickings.

The buff gunners have to stable a platform in which to track and aim at in coming fighters. But with 4 b17s it should be pretty easy to get the gunner jumping around to gun positions. Plus the time it takes to line up and drop accurrately makes buffs really vulnerable.

The only concern i have is woith huge formations of buffs causing lag. This was a real problem in big week.

[Packy]

Originally posted by Kaz
mm porked buff guns sexy  but seriously i don't think the guns need to be changed. what should be done is changing tactics when attacking buffs. i find attacking head on is great when you can manage to do that. also that flying alongside then turning in and spraying the side works very well coz it's very hard to track a fighter doing that. what else ah yes diving from above or zoom climbing from below. in otherwords never attack a buff from the rear

I think Kaz has made an excellent point about the influence of proper tactics for attacking bombers.  I have seen many posts on this board explaining the tactics used by german fighters to attack bombers during WW2.  I often see most fighters attacking my buff from 6 oclock!  of course, this may be due to the urgency to shoot down my plane which is already over their airfield (?).

Maybe we should try and adjust our buff attack tactics first.  If there is a prob with the buff guns then it will be more evident.

[Urchin]

Lephturn- I noticed nobody actually answered your question.  The answer, as far as I can tell, is that they don't.  This is based on my personal testing of the B-17 guns with the .target command, and from Hitechs explanation of how buff guns work.  Now, don't get me wrong, I used to swear up and down that the guns in bombers were 10 times stronger than their equivelants mounted on the fighters, I am now 99% sure I was wrong and they were right (they being all the people who said it was the same when I was the one squeaking that they were 'porked').

If you are firing from the waist gun at a target at say 3 OC high, where the top turret can also track it, it actually fires parallel to your waist gun.  So if you are aiming 30 degrees up (relative to the horizon) to fire at this bandit, the top turret is also firing 30 degrees up from its position (lets say) 10 feet ahead of you and 5 feet above you.  This means there are two seperate streams of bullets leaving your bomber- one from position A (waist gun) and one from position B (top turret) that are actually aiming at different spots.  You are aiming at position A (bandit) with the waist gun, the top turret is aiming at position B (some point in space 10 feet in front of the bandit and 5 feet above it).

This 'no convergence' has two seemingly opposite effects on lethality.  One one hand, it makes buff guns far less lethal, since there is really never more than one gun shooting AT you, although the other 'slaved' guns ARE shooting in your general direction.  This means a 1 second burst from a B-17 isn't NEARLY as destructive as a 1 second burst from say, a P-47.  On the OTHER hand, it really fills the sky with lead.  This has a positive effect on the lethality.  Since every gun has a 'cone' that the bullets end up in (because not every bullet flies in exactly the same path), you end up getting hit by bullets from guns that really weren't aimed at you.  For instance, currently the most lethal places to attack a B-17 from are directly head on and directly , uhm.. tail on (12 OC level and 6 OC level, from the B-17s perspective).  This is because the top, nose (and tail), and ball turrets are all within 10 feet or so of each-other vertically, and when coming from 12 or 6 OC level there is NO horizontal seperation.  So if you are in the nose turret shooting at a target coming straight at you from d1.0 out, the top turret (firing parallel to you) is firing at a point perhaps 5 feet above the bandit, and the ball turret is firing at a point perhaps 5 feet below the bandit.  At 1,000 yards, the 'cones of fire' for all 3 guns overlap, meaning you get friggin hammered as the fighter coming in.  Same story in the tail attack, except the B-17 has even more time to fire at you.  

To try to clarify this using the opposite extreme, lets say you attack from 3 OC level.  I'm not sure if the B-17s nose and tail turrets can track far enough over to hit a target coming in at exactly 3 OC, but I'll say they can, just because.  Anyway, you are in a B-17 cruising along, when I come tearing in on your 3 OC with my 109.  You, being the smart man you are, remember which key it is to switch to the right waist gunner (me being stupid, I always forget and get shot down) and start hammering away at me.  Since the nose and tail turret are slaved to you (and the flight engineer fell asleep in his top turret, to make the example simpler), they start firing also.  You are aiming right at me, but you miss a little high, so I don't die right away.  Since there is no convergence on buff guns (because they fire parallel to you), your nose turret swings 90 degrees to the right and opens fire.  It is shooting at a point perhaps 50 feet to the left of my plane (from your view), so it doesn't hit jack, even with the cone of dispersion.  Your tail turret swings 90 degrees to the left and opens fire at a point about.. I'm guessing here, lets say 20 feet to the right of my plane (again from your view).  It has a decent chance to hit me with a few bullets, depending on how far away I am.  So, if you are a really good shot with the waist gun, you might shoot me down.  Probably not though, since even though all those guns are firing, they aren't all shooting at ME.

I think the problem is that most people come roaring in right up some B-17s ass, and in that case the guns are firing on parallel tracks that are close enough together they may as well all be aimed at you, and get absolutely drilled and have the typical attitude that since that bomber killed them it must be something wrong with the bomber, not them.

Thats how I see it anyway.

I've found that the best way to attack a B-17 is to use the way the guns fire against it.  If you come in from 1 or 11 OC level (or slightly high as I prefer), you are basically making it really tough for the turrets other than the manned one to hit you.  Plus it is hard for the guy in the turret to hit you because you are rapidly sliding across his view from left to right as you close, while he remains pretty steady in your sights.  If you attack in a dive you can make it even tougher since you are not only sliding rightward on his view, you are diving as well.

[Toad]

Creamo, Habict has been around the game and this board a long time.

[Creamo]

So have I, so have you.

Enough I note your velocity to post pom pom inspired rebuttals, they simply missed the mark entirely here.

I still can see your pointing out a thread to Hab, a casual browser that may have missed the ballistics’ explanation, but to reiterate your stance after it’s been clearly pointed out it’s a gameplay and Buff  gun slewing that fakes a uninformed player into thinking guns are more powerful (a very informative thread) is again, silly.

Maybe he should know better and read more being a here a long time.

I don’t think so, and even more, think he’s being tricked like the rest of us regarding Buff gun effects. The ballistics are thought out and modeled well, it’s the gameplay that was a mystery unless you pour hours into the game.

We simply did not know.

[Toad]

In a mood to argue about nothing much at all, I see.  

It isn't "pom pom inspired"... it's merely the "oh, no.. not this stuff again.. and again.. and again.. and again...." factor.

Buff guns have been beat up one side and down the other. There's a certain individual that has made more of it than most. HT pretty clearly explained it to him in that thread.

Perhaps Habict didn't read that one.. or any one of the multiple others where HT has repeated and repeated and repeated himself. Perhaps not.

You might be right about one thing though. Maybe guys with a beef should be made more aware of the search function of the BBS.

Would it please you if I point them to the search function next time? Instead of finding the thread for them, linking it and cut/paste the germane answer to their question?

[Steven]

Urchin, great post.  It makes sense and I see how it works now.

[Urchin]

I do think the buff guns will have to be changed though, at least if I am right about how they work.  If all the slaved guns (and I'm assuming that the guns on the other 3 ships in the formation will be slaved to the gunner on the 'primary' ship) fire parallel to where the manned guns are aiming, there are instances where a LOT of that extra firepower is wasted.  

For instance, lets say the buffs are in a 'finger four' type formation, and you attack the #4 buff head-on.  Since you wont be coming head on at the #1 buff (where the manned gunner is firing), none of the guns on the #4 buff will be shooting anywhere NEAR you- at least not if they fire parallel to the #1 buffs guns.

Another concern I have is with the formation bombers themselves.  What exactly happens to them if they 'lose formation'?  Do they just dissapear? Do they blow up?  Do they just fly straight and level and not shoot at anyone?  It will be relatively easy to get kills on the formation buffs if all you have to do is take out an engine on each one and wait till they drop out of formation and blow up or dissapear.  It'll be neat though, to finally have formations of bombers flying around instead of the 'lone rangers' we have now.