Problems with Educational System of U.S.

[Eagler]

Vouchers with testing

Grade the schools on what the kids are taught and retain - allow them to go to other schools when their "assigned" school does not "make the grade" with vouchers.
Higher pay for teachers to recruit better qualified teachers would go a long way. Kids who want to learn would help as would uniforms to standardize the dress code so the kids are more concerned with learning than what they look like to their peers.

Can't compare college with public HS. One is free, the other cost an arm & a leg, make that two legs

The students (& parents) usually get serious when $$$ in that quantity are involved.

[Kieran]

Originally posted by Eagler
Vouchers with testing

Grade the schools on what the kids are taught and retain - allow them to go to other schools when their "assigned" school does not "make the grade" with vouchers.
Higher pay for teachers to recruit better qualified teachers would go a long way. Kids who want to learn would help as would uniforms to standardize the dress code so the kids are more concerned with learning than what they look like to their peers.

Can't compare college with public HS. One is free, the other cost an arm & a leg, make that two legs

The students (& parents) usually get serious when $$$ in that quantity are involved.

Playing the devil's advocate...

How do you "grade the school on what the kids are taught and retain"? Sounds like standardized testing, and it encourages rote learning.

Penalizing a school with vouchers to private schools encourages public schools to fudge the numbers- or create completely idiotic doctrine that will quantify progress.

Higher pay? All for it, except... who pays for it? People here already scream about property taxes.

Uniforms? Doubt that will ever happen. We can't afford the lawsuits. Should have been here when we enacted our dress code...

You absolutely have to compare college to public education. First, public education is driven to some extent by research conducted by colleges. Secondly, public schools follow the model of behavior to some extent practiced by colleges. In terms of admissions, SAT and ACT tests are still the most important aspects of a student's admission. This means one of the primary concerns of a public institution is teach in a way that will prepare students for SAT or ACT. What do the tests test primarily? Math and English. Research suggests there are eight identifiable intelligences, and at least four different learning styles for each intelligence. Never mind what they all are; it is enough to understand most of our students' abilities are ignored because the system we are under forces us to ignore them.

[Otto]

The problem is the Students and their Parents.  It can't be more serious than that....

[Wingnut_0]

The problem is they still refuse to do anything other than a little intro to the metric system.

All of america's problems can be traced back to our failure to teach a meaningful measuring system.  

A.M.E (Americans for Metric Everything) say that:

8 out of 10 rednecks cannot not effectively use metric tools on their trucks.

9 out of 10 americans believe, kilo refers to cocaine.

and 6 out of 10 believe yards and meters are the same measurement.

Until American schools start to teach our kids more about the metric system instead of this dam feet stuff, we'll be doomed to stupidity!

[H. Godwineson]

Like Mathman, I am a school teacher. Currently I am in my twenty-fifth year in this profession.  I have been teaching social-studies for twenty-one of those years in a small school in southeast Arkansas in the Mississippi River Delta.  In spite of our small size, we have many of the same problems that afflict city schools across the nation;  poverty, drugs, and student and parental apathy.  Many of our students come from families at the low end of the socio-economic spectrum.

We have other problems that threaten our existence as a school district.  In the belief that "bigger is better," some educational leaders are calling for consolidation of the small, isolated, rural districts in the state.  As a result, we are constantly having to fight to retain our funding and justify our independence.  One measure that the State Department of Education requires all schools to meet is that a certain percentage of our students perform well on various aptitude tests.  While larger schools in more prosperous areas of the state have little trouble meeting these requirements, they present us with problems that are almost insuperable.  Schools that have large numbers of children from middle or upper-class families have a distinct advantage over the small, rural schools in handling these criteria.  Their children have a more positive outlook on education, receive more support from their parents, and are often self motivated.  Ours do not.

However, these are only the concerns of a small school district, and do not address the problems of national education as a whole.  Let me offer some thoughts about other points that have been brought up by readers of this thread.

1.  Vouchers - I am for them.  I may be a bit of an oddity because I am one of a small number of public school teachers who support them.  It is the height of hypocrisy, in my opinion, for members of Congress to oppose vouchers while sending their own children to private schools.  The poor have just as much right to decide where their children should go and how their school tax dollars are spent.  If a politician preaches equality and civil rights and then opposes something like this their constituents should run them out of town on a rail.

2.  Rote Learning - It does not deserve the criticism that is so often leveled at it.  Rote learning has its place within the educational system, as do learning methods that stess decision-making.  Rapid decision making is not possible without having at one's disposal a considerable store of  information that does not have to be tracked down.  Rote learning was largely abandoned by our schools, beginning in the 1960's in favor of strategies that stressed decision making skills.  By stressing decision-making skills to the exclusion of rote-learning we hamper a student's ability to MAKE decisions.

3. Phonics - The phonetics approach to teaching reading worked for 3000 years, but was, like rote-learning, largely discarded in the 1960s in favor of the whole-word method.  The adoption of these modernistic, educational fads has proven to be disastrous.  Not only can little Johnny not read, he cannot spell.  He does not have the ability to break a new word down into its component parts to make it easier to pronounce.  Especially hard-hit have been the children of the lower socio-economic classes.  Coming from homes where the learning environment is not strong to begin with, these children get little help at school.  Fortunately, there has been a movement back to the phonetics approach in recent years.

4. Teacher salaries - For those of you who do not think teachers deserve a higher salary let me issue a challenge;  Give up your job and teach for a year.  One week will not do it.  Nor will a month.  To get the full measure of the enjoyment do it for an entire year.  To further maximize the experience, teach on the junior high level. Hope you enjoy all the lesson planning and paper grading and incessant whining and spoiled behavior and the dishonesty and parental apathy and belligerence and frivolous bureaucratic paperwork.  You will find that teaching does have its good points;  the children who work hard and appreciate your efforts on their behalf and the parents who make every effort to make your job easier.  These golden moments are sometimes few and far between, and they do not help to pay the bills.  Like every profession, teaching has its share of idiots and slackers.  Ask yourself this question;  Should an entire profession be penalized because of the failings of those few? If you are still convinced that teachers do not deserve better pay, ask yourself this question;  How can I attract better teachers to the profession without raising salaries to a level competitive with the private sector?  Perhaps I'm a little defensive here, but many of the teachers I have known were top-knotch, highly intelligent, and caring people.  The old statement "Those that can do...those that cannot teach" is grossly unfair.


To end on a higher note I would like to say that we have more to be thankful for than we realized.  Our schools continue to turn out the type of students that turn into world leaders in every scientific and business field.  Immigrants pour into our country every year and manage to get a first-class education.  We must be doing something right!


Regards, Shuckins

[Nifty]

Eagler, Florida already does the voucher for F grade schools.

Yes, the grades come partially from standardized testing.  (also grad rates and attendence are factored in.)  It's not just straight test scores either, you have to show improvement.  So when your students top out, you're no longer an A school, you're a B school.  This happened last year in our district.  One of the elementary schools scored some of the highest test scores in the state, and was well ahead of the other elementary schools in the district.  It was a B school, while several other elementary schools were A schools.  I guess you could say that's fair though, since they're doing as well as they can (based on the scores topping out) they don't need more funding than the other schools for technology and teaching resources.

1. Pay the teachers more.  How to do this?  Cut out as much beauracracy as you can.  Most public districts are VERY top heavy in administration.  Even in a district with streamlined administration, the teachers don't get paid much.  It's difficult to pay the teachers more based on what the state gives the school districts (I'm speaking solely for Florida, it's where I live, and yes, I work in a school district as a web admin.)  Then you have to do the thing that NO ONE wants.  Raise taxes or appropriate more money for education.  Or you can lie like Florida did.  We have a lottery that most of the funds generated from go to education.  It was implied that the lottery would supplement current education funding.  Nope.  The current funding was mostly diverted to other areas and the lottery became the main funding for education in the state.

2. give the teachers more tools.  Computers and educational software are very important in helping teach our kids.  Remedial software can help catch children up, for example.

3. get the parents more involved, like mathman said.  The parents need to take an active interest in their child's grades.  It's wonderful to see Skuzzy talk about his kid, you can tell his genuinely interested in his education.  If the kid is falling behind in school, the parents need to help out, either do it themselves or get the kid a tutor if he/she has problems grasping a concept.

The scary thing is how obvious these things are, yet nothing is done about them.  Teachers need to be paid more.  They are public servants that basically shape the future of our country.  Think about it, does the average kid spend more time with their parents or their teachers?

oh, and gotta give my district some props...  they know how to teach the kids to the FCAT, florida comprehensive assessment test.  In most categories and grade levels they were first or tied for first in the state, out of 67 districts.  The rest were second, with four 3rds and one 4th.  Nothing lower than that!  I think the 6th, 7th, and 8th grade levels were all 1st or tied for 1st.     However, all that means is the kids are trained how to take the FCAT, it doesn't mean they've actually learned everything they should have learned in their grade level.  It's only Math, Reading and Writing.  No science or social studies, so those subjects probably get skimped on for the Elementary kids...

[midnight Target]

I taught Special Education for 5 years. I quit because I burned out. I admire those who can do this job for so long.
Teaching is the most underpaid profession bar none IMHO. The amount of preparation necessary each and every day is difficult to describe to people. Most of us go to our jobs with a vague plan of what we want to accomplish, or wondering what might crop up today.
A teacher must have his/her entire day orchestrated EVERY DAY. It's almost like doing a performance in front of an audience with a new script each time. I would really look forward to "film classes". We used to call it a 'lesson plan in a can'.

[Kieran]

The main problem I have with rote learning is the nature of the retention found in its usage. Yes, some things are best learned by rote- multiplication tables and state's capitals are good examples. The problem lies when it becomes the foundation of the educational system. You know you can give a test 80% of your students pass one week, then give the same test a month later and only 60% will pass.

True learning occurs when students internalize, attach some personal meaning to the information gathered, or find something that applies in the real world and to themselves that makes it worth retaining. For this, rote learning falls far short because rote learning isn't about examining or understanding, it is simply "A=347, got that?" You can't call upon years of disconnected information running through your head; it has to be anchored to something understandable or it will be forgotten or unattainable on command.

Thinking skills are far more important- they teach you to process information as you receive it, how to analyze the information, and where to get more information as needed.

Our collective educational problem where rote learning is concerned is that many of our schools use rote learning to boost standardized state testing scores. We rush through material in our books, feeling the heat from the "impending test", pressured to cover as much material as possible. This ensures we never give more than a passing glance at any one topic, also ensuring we cannot really teach for understanding. Lord help you if your students show poorly on standardized tests and it is revealed you didn't even cover the material that was tested.

As far as I know, no state has adopted standardized testing that really tests anything other than material that can be memorized by rote. If research says learning for understanding is vital to our students, doesn't it seem we are blowing it with the standardized tests? And you are absolutely kidding yourself if you think the bulk of the school systems in the country aren't doing exactly what I suggested, that is, teaching to the standardized testing.

[Fatty]

Keiran the reason a comparison between college and high school won't work (unless you're trying to make a case for vouchers) is because all colleges (even public ones) are operating as private schools.  Without performance they get no students at all, because each student and/or parents must make a decision to select that school based on its track record and what it has to offer.

As far as standardized tests go, I'd love to have a better system of evaluating progress, but I haven't seen one.

[Kieran]

There is nothing wrong in concept with standardized testing; what is wrong is what is tested and how it is tested.

Children are not numbers, and they can't be quanitified that easily. As I have already mentioned, there are eight identified intelligences and four learning styles. Standardized testing considers two of the intelligences and two of the learning styles. If you don't happen to fall into those categories (and many children don't) you lose.

Keep standardized tests, but change them to evaluate all intelligences and learning styles.

[Mathman]

Originally posted by Sikboy


How do you feel about teacher evaluation and testing?

-Sikboy

I am for it.  At least the evaluation part.  The reason why evalutation is good is that it will provide a way for teachers to get feedback concerning what is going on in their classroom and be able to improve and become better.  Also, it provides a way for those that will not adapt and improve to be removed or placed in a situation that they are better suited for.

My mom is a principal at a middle school in San Diego, and she is constantly evaluating teachers and giving them constructive feedback on their performance and offering ways to improve.  This is the key for creating a learning environment that will produce students that not only think for themselves, but are willing participants in the education process.  When the students become involved, it makes my job easier.  I get immediate feedback on what topics I need to stress or cover in a much more thorough way than others.

I love my job.  Everyday is different from the one before.  It sounds lame, but when you see the "light bulb" go on for a student, it makes the whole job that much better.

[Sikboy]

Thanks Math.

-Sikboy

[Eagler]

Nifty - I know and I am for it, though the dems and the teachers want it repealed. Funny they want a job in which THEY are never held accountable for their performance - i.e. teaching the kids in their charge

Maybe we should go back to busing, that worked so well

Nothing like putting your 6th grade son on a bus for a 45 min ride into a neighborhood you wouldn't drive your family into past 5pm - all in the name of "equal education"

[Kieran]

Fatty-

The comparison that is strongest between colleges and public schools is the manner in which students are assessed. Both look at graduation rates and use standardized scores (exit scores for public education, entry scores for colleges).

Colleges and public schools are linked through research, and what innovation that does occur in our schools usually originates in colleges. This usually comes in the form of research.

New school improvement models incorporate more of a grass roots approach, because research suggests cookie-cutter approaches don't always fit (surprise!). Not only that, but schools are well accustomed to educational initiatives in the form of school improvement being written then immediately shelved as impractical. Schools waste time writing policies that conform to state mandates (in order to receive funding), but realize as they are written they are impractical. This hopefully is changing, but only time will tell. The new iniatives will have to overcome a very cynical teaching core- last thing in the world a teacher has time for is more busywork.

[Nifty]

Eagler, f you think the Florida teachers do not teach 90% (or more) to the FCAT, then you are mistaken.

Kids spend a lot of time on FCAT prep software, so they can do extremely well on the test.  Now, granted, these kids get very good at taking these tests...  which only test basic math and reading (and writing in all of 2 grade levels).  Is this what you really want?  The emphasis in Florida schools isn't about education, it's about the FCAT because that's where the school grades mostly come from, and the school grades are exactly where the funding levels come from.  

It's a mixed bag for me.  I see our students in this district do the best in the state on the FCAT, which is good.  However, does that mean the schools here are concentrating TOO much on one standardized test that only tests 2 subject areas?  (eventually science is supposed to be added.  maybe one day history and other social studies will be too.  but we all know history isn't important...)  This is the reason why a lot of people are against the FCAT as the near sole measure of accountability in this state.  How are you going to hold a middle school history teacher accountable with the FCAT?