MK 103 in AH ?

[Hristo]

Any chance ?

[airquest]

ya mean the german mk 103 cannon?

[Vermillion]

First you need an aircraft that used it operationally !

[Heinkel]

We have one, a few variants of the 262 had 103's...lemme go get the info

[Heinkel]

Here:

Type:
(A-1a) single-seat fighter

Engine:
Model: Junkers Jumo 004B
Type: axial Turbojets
Number: Two      Thrust: 1,980lb (900kg)

Me 262A-1a/U1:
-Two 30mm MK 103
-Two MK 108
-Two 20mm MG 151/20

or this would be nicer

Me 262B-2a:
As A-1A plus two inclined MK 108 behind the cockpit in Schrage Musik installation
(D) SG 500 Jagdfaust with 12 rifled mortar barrels inclined in nose
(E) 50mm MK 114 gun or 48 R4/M rockets

[Heinkel]

Some more:

The Me 262A-1/U1 differed from the standard A-1a in nose mounted armament. It featured two 20mm MG 151 cannon with 146 rounds each, two 30mm MK 103 cannon with 72 rounds each, and two 30mm MK 108 cannon with 66 rounds each. The MK 103 had a longer barrel and a higher muzzle velocity than the MK 108.

[SKurj]

didn't 190's have the ability to carry mk103 gondies?


and dual mk108 gondies?


SKurj

[Vermillion]

Heinkel, how many were made? And were they used beyond testing? The Mk103 was much larger and heavier than the Mk108 that was used on most 262's, not to mention also adding to MG151/20's.

Skurj, I'm not absolutely sure, but if I remember right the Mk103 were only tested on the 190 (1 to 3 aircraft max) and never used operationally.

[Heinkel]

Well, here's the part people wont like. 3 262's were made with the 2xMk108, 2xMk103, and 2xMg151. Out of those 3, one of them flew 1 combat sorite. The results wern't good, and they moved on to bigger and better things.

-Edit-
Skurj, i think some prototype 190's had Mk103, but none flew with them. I will look into it more...

[Heinkel]

Yes! Mk103 was used in some 190. From http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/

Mk 103 Aircraft Cannon

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Manufacturer: Rhienmetall Borsig
Caliber: 30mm
Weight: 146kg
Muzzle Velocity: 860mps
   Rate Of Fire: 420 Rounds per minute
Round Types: High Explosive Incendiary and Armor Piercing
Round Weights: 330 gr. (11oz.)
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The MK103 was developed together with the MK 108: The MK103 was a high-velocity weapon to attack bombers from a distance, and for ground attack; the MK108 was a low-velocity weapon for single-seat fighters. The MK108 was much lighter (only 64kg) and cheaper (because it used many stamped parts).

   The MK103 (MK for "Maschinenkanone") was broadly based on the earlier MK101, but its operation was changed to partially gas-operated (a gas pistoon was used to unlock the breech block) and it used electrically-fired ammunition instead of percussion-fired ammunition.

   The MK103 weighed 146kg, against 178kg for the MK101, and fired at 420rpm (against 250rpm) with a similar muzzle velocity (860m/sec). It used 30 x 184B ammunition similar to that of the MK101. At the end the Germans seem to have used downloaded ammunition (with a lower muzzle velocity) to compensate for a shortage of strong alloys, and weaker guns.

   The ammunition types developed were "Hartkern", AP with a tungsten core, and "Minengeschoss", a thin drawn shell with a large HE/I load. The former for ground-attack aircraft, the latter for use against bombers.

   There was also a MK103M version for mounting on the engine, i.e. firing through the propeller hub. This had a different design for the gas duct (the standard gas duct did not fit in the tube running between the cylinder banks of German V-12 engines) and no muzzle brake (same reason). The MK103M seems to have been less reliable than the standard version.

   The MK103 was installed in a few Fw 190 ground-attack aircraft (wings), in an experimental Me 262 (nose), the prototypes for the Ta 152C-3 (engine), in some Do 335s (engine and wings), and possibly in a handful of Bf 109K fighters (engine).

[Heinkel]

Use Altavista  and translate this site from French to English site

It mentions that the 190 could carry 2xMk103's. Still trying to figure out which model though....

[Heinkel]

Found it, 190 A-8 COULD carry Mk103's

Main modifications:

FW-190A-8/R1 - Fighter. Armament: 6 MG 151 guns of 20mm caliber - in the wing and 2 MG 131 machine-guns of 13mm caliber above engine hood.
FW-190A-8/R2 - Fighter. Armament: 2 MG 151 guns of 20mm caliber + 2 MK 108 guns of 30mm caliber - in the wing and 2 machine-guns MG 131 of 13mm caliber above engine hood.
FW-190A-8/R3 - Fighter. Armament: 2 MG 151 guns of 20mm caliber - in the wing + 2 MK 103 guns of 30mm caliber - under the wing and 2 MG 131 machine-guns of 13mm caliber above engine hood.
FW-190A-8/R7 - “Ramjaeger”. Armament: 4 MG 151 guns of 20mm caliber - in the wing and 2 MG 131 machine-guns of 13mm caliber above engine hood. Strengthened armor.
FW-190A-8/R8 - Fighter. Armament: 2 MK 103 guns of 30mm caliber - under the wing and 2 MG 131 machine-guns of 13mm caliber above engine hood.
FW-190A-8/U1 - Two-seater training aircraft.


Edit* Forgot to point out that the FW-190A-8/R3 and FW-190A-8/R8  were the models that could carry the 103's

Edit again , here's a description:

The FW-190A-8 R3 Formation Destroyer. A bit of explanation of this variant is in order. At this point in the war, huge formations of US and British bombers would attack Germay, day and night. The FW-190 was better able to deal with these bombers by its already formidable armament (two 7.7 or 13 mm machine guns, and usually two or four 20mm cannon.) The long barreled 30mm cannon was conceived as a "formation destroyer" - it didn't need to be accurate, it just had to disruupt the defensive box formations the bombers flew in. It was successful at this - and any bomber unlucky enough to be hit by this weapon was a goner. This was one of the most heavily armed FW-190 variants, both in number and caliber of guns.

[Heinkel]

Here's a good page that lists every variant of the 190, Including the 190A-8/R3

190's

Fw 190A-5/U11 Bomber-destroyer with external/internal mountings of MK 103/108 30mm cannon

Fw 190A-5/U16 Bomber-destroyer with wing mounted MK 103/108 30mm cannon

A-5's could carry 103's also but i am not sure if they were flown in combat.

[Vermillion]

Heinkel the A8 R2 and and I think the R3 both mounted the Mk108.  Just because you see a number like U# or R# doesn't mean it wasn't a test aircraft.  Funked has the info on which were used in production aircraft, but I'm fairly sure no Mk103's were used.

And 3 aircraft produced for the 262 is not production, unit level operational aircraft.  Thats prototype, testing level.

Sorry but I still haven't seen anything that would indicate that any of the aircraft in AH used the Mk103.

If I remember right we would have to have a Me410 or Hs129 (or a Do335 but it wasn't really more than a prototype itself)  before the Mk103 would rightfully be introduced here.

[Heinkel]

Well, the 262 with the 103's is a bit far-fetched, and the 190 A-5 w/ 103's never flew, but all of the stuff i have suggets that the 190 A-8/R-3 Flew with 30mm's.  

it didn't need to be accurate, it just had to disruupt the defensive box formations the bombers flew in. It was successful at this - and any bomber unlucky enough to be hit by this weapon was a goner.

See above, where it says ann Buff hit by the weapons of a Mk103 is a goner? How would they know, unless it really happened?

I also found somwheres, the the a-8/r-3 was a common package during the end of the war, and it was re-named to somthing else...i'll post the link when i find it again.

From what i have found, i am 95% sure, that the 190A-8/r3 did fly combat sorites.