AH 152 vs. Actual 152

[Wotan]

spit 14 deck 362 - 365




152 deck 362 - 365

152  /  spit 14

5k 380 / 395

10k 395 / 410

15k 408 / 405

20k 420 / 423

25k 430 / 440


spit 14 max 27k @ 447

ta152 as shown by chart 30k @ 453

all these speeds are with wep. However the 152 has significantly longer wep then the spit.

On the deck numerous times I have extended away from spit 14s.

You can go through and compare speeds with out wep but understand the 152 has a longer wep.

[ergRTC]

Yeah I was looking sans wep. I think the problem is that someone was expecting the 152 to be uber like a spit 9/la7, which you can seriously screw up in and still get out of the fight.  The 152 is an a5 on steroids with big weak wings.  Just like the a5 if you get slow and low, you are dead.  You cant argue with that can you?  In the current setup my strat has been to take a spit or tempest and try to get you 262 and 152 drivers to come down and play.  Havnt had a problem yet.
In 2 hours of play in the new setup...
                ki ko kb di  
Spitfire Mk XIV 8   0  0 0
Tempest         4   0  0 2
(I really only remember getting smacked once, but I did ditch in a field with no gas, maybe that is the second death in the tempest)
Now if you want to talk modeling, the spit 14 behaves like a ufo/god mode, but I aint complaining.

[Turbot]

Originally posted by Animal
The Ta-152 is a Dora on steroids, better than any unperked plane.

Maybe so, but if people generally beleived that wouldn't you expect to see more of them in the air?  I don't think anyone fears the 152, when I am at the stick my 109f4 is something a heck of a lot more dangerous.  Which I found interesting again when I ran across this:

The pilots who flew the Ta 152 H in battle were very pleased with it. The aircraft was well able to battle the P-51D "Mustang" as well as the British Hawker "Tempest", several of these allied aircraft falling to the guns of the Ta 152. Despite the fact the Ta 152 H was ment to combat high-altitude allied bombers, almost no missions of this type were flown by those units who operated the aircraft ( notably, III/JG 301 and Stab JG 301 ). The first mission undertaken by III/JG 301 on March 2, 1945 was to intercept U.S. bombers heading for the Bohlen chemical plant near Leuna. It ended when pilots of a group of Messerschmitt BF 109s mistook the new German aircraft for the enemy and engaged them. No losses were incured and the superior climbing and agility of the Ta 152 H allowed them to evade all of the "attackers". Following this, most of III/JG 301 was involved with battling allied fighters, not bombers...the final victims of the Ta 152s guns being Russian Yakolev Yak-9s during the final days of battle around Berlin on April 30, 1945.

I never flew a real Ta152H  nobody much alive has (seeing as how there is only 1 left in the world)  - but just doesn't seem to live up to the hype in AH as well as the most other planes do.

[ergRTC]

I have to agree a little with you turbot.  Another thing to remember is that ah does not model shoddy materials/engines.

[Mathman]

There aren't any planes that live up to the hype that surrounds them in AH.  This includes the Spit, La7, N1K, P-51, 190D-9, etc...

[K West]

"There aren't any planes that live up to the hype that surrounds them in AH."

So we're right back to the age old question, "Is it the pilot or the plane?"



Westy

[Wotan]

the 152 hardly has weak guns. Also rarely did ac fly around at full man. they "cruised". Any story you read about ac in ww2 needs to be put in context. You cant model planes based on "stories". You know little to nothing about the circumstances of those engagements. HT has to use documented data. If you find credible documented data that shows the 152 is modeled wrong then offer it.

Wilbuz may help you.

However the topic of your post is ah 152 vrs rl 152. If you fly planes in ah based on stories you have read then you will die. Fly the plane the way its modeled. We all want a real fm. If you have data that shows the fm is wrong then lets see it. I can find stories about all types of ac that portray them as "uber". Comparing the 152 to an a5 is a stretch.

You would have much more fun learning how to fly the ah 152 then pulling your hair out expecting the plane to perform to some story in a book.

just my 2 cents.

fyi people dont fly the 152 much because its perked. In general lw planesd in ah get used little compared to the allied birds.

So what you have is a small group of lw pilots that are going to fly the 152 anyway. The chog was used more then any other plane in ah. It was getting 20% of the kills. perked at 10 its numbers fell off drastically. So the fact that the 152 isnt flown that much in the main is no indication of its fm. Also it was very rare in ww2 just like ah. Just as it should be.

[ergRTC]

speaking of real life vs ah.  What is it with full throttle flying?  Was it decided that over reving/overheating/destroying your engine was too much of a sacrifice to game play?  I think it would be neat if we could actually 'throttle up and climb' cause we had to reduce manifold pressures to keep the engine in one piece.  I think some more realism would come into the game then.  As well as engine endurance issues.  Anybody remember anything about HTC and this issue?

[Toad]

Scan down through this thread for comments by Pyro on advanced engine management. Should give you an idea of what they're thinking.

Advanced Engine Management

There's another one where he posted a factory durability report on a Pratt run at full throttle for many, many hours (days?).. with no damage.  I can't find that one right now.

[Wotan]

my point about running full man has little to do with saying we need real eng management. I added that only to point out that most planes had cruise settings.

Eng management is a whole other thread of itself. il2 eng management is ok but itas hardly real from what i have read.

The point is just because you read it in a story doesnt mean you will get the same results in ah. Theres so much unsaid that to model an aircraft based on stories would be imposible.

[Wilbus]

I believe I have to jump in here.

RA, what's your source? I have one of the few, and probarly the best specialized TA152 book on the market, trying to see if I can find anything about the TA152 H being taken out of action but for what I remember now, the last time I read it I found no such thing. There were however, as you say, only 2 TA152C's that survived the war, only two reached service at all as grunherzed said, although he could difinatly said it in a more mature and intelligent way...

Wotan, the AH the charts seem to be wrong (no matter how freaking weird that sounds). Check my chart bellow, it's the old chart that shows speed all the way up to 50k, and read my tests bellow, could these speeds have improved because of 25% fuel load?

Now, check speed at 41.000 feet, that was where the TA152H-1 had its top speed, using GM1 power boost, water Methanol was held in the wings.
The AH speed charts show exactly 450 Mph. I did a test in AH, using 25% fuel only, I dove from 50k to 41k, used WEP for 10 minutes and then checked speed in the new film viewer, speed that was reached was 460mph. Not what the AH charts say, faster, which is GOOD.

What is more important is that its max speed is reached nearly 10k below the alt of what it was in real life, and great disadvantage in high alt performance.
Check speed at 31k, shows about 460, which is very right from my test where I, after 10 minutes WEP and dive from 40k had a speed of 461mph.

Weird huh? Speed is the same at 41k aswell as 31k...

The TA152 is lovely in AH.  
At low alt it's still good and probarly as it should be, hold E great, good guns, fairly good speed and very good acceleration. Turns well too. It can challange most planes, the problem is the perk icon, as with all planes, brings out the worst of people

I have charts with most other TA152's then the H-1, inlcuding DB equiped ones (belive me, you non LW flying people do NOT want a DB equiped TA in AH ).

If I only had somewhere to upload images too I could post some charts.

I will make a separate thread about the TA152, post engines and some stuff and maybe we can get a real "is it actually wrong?" discussion going

I'll also post Kurt Tanks own words about the "Attack of the P51's" when he had just taken off, check under General Discussion soon.

Btw, anyone know a place where I can upload images and films?

As soon as I have some kind of webspace I can get started with charts...

[Wilbus]

I hope I succeeded in giving you my thoughts as I think them. I try not to say it is porked as I have shown no evidence of it, if it is porked, it's most likely only the 30k+ performance that is affected, the max speed was in real life achived at 41.000 feet, when in AH, it is reached at 31.000, quite a big difference but might not matter much in AH.

Please don't start screaming about me to show proof, because I haven't said it is porked, nor will I say it is porked, staying open minded on this from now on.

All

[Wilbus]

Will make some more posts in here...

Here's a little snip of text from the book "Focke Wulf TA152 The Story of the Luftwaffes's Late-War, High-Altitude Fighter." By "Dieter Harmann".

The name of the book might be somewhat wrong since not all TA152's were high-altitude fighters.

I know Karnak has got this book aswell, so if some of you think I am lying to prove anything, just ask him and I am sure he'll set you straight

Chapter "The High-Altitude Power Plants of the Ta 152", page 129.

Not gonna type everything just "scrolling down" a little bit.

"In order to avoid thermal overheating the engine required an intercooler, and in contrast to the FW 190 D this could be accomodated  in the airframe of the Ta 152 H. At the same time output could be increased further through the injection of MW 50 and GM 1. Using Mw 50 the Ta 152 H-1 could reach 749 kph ("Wilbus notes: 749 kilometers/h = 465.4070mph") at an altitude of 9,500 meters ("Wilbus Notes: 9,5km = 31167,9790 feet") and with GM 1, 760 kph at 12,500 meters Wilbus Notes: 12,5km = 41010,4987 feet and Speed: 760 kilometers/h = 472,2421 mph") . But in order to achieve these performances the engine had to be made fully ready
for production."

Ok, now you say the Engine wasn't made fully ready, that is both true and untrue. The TA152 H-0 used the Jumo 213 E-0 Engine, this was NOT fully ready for it and could not use MW 50 nor GM 1 boost.
The TA 152 H-1 used the Jumo 213E-1 engine which WAS made fully ready and worked as it should, it ran both MW 50 and GM 1 boosts.

If you want me to type that too I will.

There was also a Junkers equipement set that increased the Horsepower further with about 150 hp, it was installed both in the 190 D and TA152 H-1 with great success, don't have much info about that one though.

Now I'll take a brake

[Turbot]

Thanks for info Wilbuz - pls do add the Kurt Tank vs. the p51 story when you can - I can't find the full story on the web again.

(I also need to try 152 with less than full fuel load - used to doing that in 109 and 190)

[Montezuma]

Originally posted by Wilbus
I believe I have to jump in here.
RA, what's your source? I have one of the few, and probarly the best specialized TA152 book on the market, trying to see if I can find anything about the TA152 H being taken out of action but for what I remember now, the last time I read it I found no such thing.

He quotes the Smithsonian NASM website.  Since they have the only Ta-152 in the world, I trust them more than your coloring books.