Were the Russians planning to invade in 1942?

[--am--]

[--am--]

[--am--]

To quote propagation of time " of cold war " it not cleverest. I can recollect propagation against West of times " of cold war " and present photos with such horrors, that you three days eat can not.

[-tronski-]

Who or what are the bottom two pics?

 Tronsky

[julle]

Russians still in Denial

Poles Reject Moscow's Statement

By Andrzej Stylinski
Associated Press Writer

WARSAW, Poland (AP) -- Poland's Foreign Ministry on Wednesday protested a Russian statement denying that the 1939 Soviet invasion of eastern Poland was an "act of aggression."

In a move that threatened to strain Polish-Russian ties, the Russian Foreign Ministry said Tuesday that the former Soviet army was merely seizing territory as a buffer against any Nazi advance from occupied Poland.

Polish Foreign Ministry spokesman Pawel Dobrowolski said Friday's 60th anniversary of the invasion "is not the best moment to revive arguments, which we know from the language of the Stalinist (era) propaganda."

Western historians have long said that the former Soviet Union acted on a secret agreement with Nazi Germany when the Soviet army seized eastern Polish provinces 17 days after Hitler invaded Poland, starting World War II. The so-called Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact preceding the invasion is generally acknowledged to have called for the partition of Poland between the Nazis and Soviets.

After seizing the territory, the Soviets sent some 1.5 million Poles to labor camps. At least 15,000 Polish officers were killed by secret police.

Polish President Aleksander Kwasniewski plans an unofficial visit on the anniversary Friday to the Russian cities of Katyn and Kharkov, where thousands of Polish officers executed under Stalin's regime are buried. Moscow officially acknowledged responsibility in 1990 for the Katyn massacre that followed Poland's partition.

Kwasniewski's top aide, Marek Siwiec, called the Russian statement about the Soviet invasion a "big mistake" and indicated Russian diplomacy acted in a "somewhat schizophrenic" way.

[Angus]

Now if anyone earns the title of "revisionist" it would be am, or boroda. Questioning the events at Katyn forest is not far from questioning the birth of Napoleon! And still another secret is to be unveiled, - there were 10.000 more officers who's bodies were never found.
But anyway, back to the possible invasion. Molotov and Ribbentrop had already split up Poland before the Polish invasion, with a line, and to that line is where the soviet troops moved.
This was coldly pre-planned, although the russians did not know more about what Hitler was planning. Hitler surprized the russians with his Polish campaign and the speed of which it was carried out to success. The russians also surprized Hitler in the swiftness of getting in there themselves. Although bound together by a contract, I find it just as normal for the russians to have been plotting against Hitler, as he plotting against the russians.
There was a big and illogical thing in the German invasion of the USSR. If the invasion was about raw materials, it was purely silly, for Hitler was already getting them at a cheaper cost than waging war for them. Its like he expected their deal to be a short lived one. Or was this purely fanatic politic?
The russians however, would have been very clever to plot against the germans. Firstly, the germans were a strong military force lead by an uncalculable fanatic. Secondly, the conquest of Germany would move their perimeter to the west, and enable them to "liberate" western Europe, in which especially France, had a strong force of communists. Britain would be left alone in Europe as a "western" capitalistic state.
Now, Britain was not particularly popular amongst the russians, and in a sense, a cold war between the two had already started.
In a debate between Churchill and Stalin (Yalta?) Stalin  complained that the Western allies were not resisting the germans with a strong enough force compaired to the russians. Churchill replied : "When Britain stood alone against the germans, their tanks ships and aeroplanes were running on russian oil"
So, from the scenery of 1941 I think it is very logical to assume that the russians were planning. They had the motive from pure common sense. And they had the means for aggressive warfare, as had been demonstrated well in Finland. So where is the plan?
BTW, there vere hot debates at Nurnberg about whether the russians should stand trial for BOTH Katyn forest and the Finnish invasion. However that would have been difficult to do, as they were one of the victors, and had by then closed their curtain!

[Angus]

I have news for you am!!!!

 The graves of 25,700 Polish citizens massacred by the Soviets in April and May 1940 have been unearthed at three sites in western Russia, providing evidence for a genocide indictment the Polish government plans to pursue in the Polish General Court. The excavations, carried out by Muzeum Okregowe w Sieradzu archaeologist Marek Urbanski, yielded thousands of German-made bullets bought by the Soviets between 1930 and 1935, proof of Russian involvement in the massacres. Soviet officials had blamed the killings on Hitler. Urbanski says the executions were directed mainly at Polish army officers captured at the outset of World War II and were part of a Soviet plan to exterminate the Polish intelligentsia. Some 14,700 executed officers have been identified by their uniforms and other military paraphernalia.

   Nearly three weeks after Hitler invaded Poland on September 1, 1939, Stalin ordered Soviet troops into the eastern part of the country. Captured Polish officers were interned in concentration camps at Kozielsk, Starobielsk, and Ostaszkow, and, six months later, were executed in Katyn and Miednoje forests and in a wooded area on the outskirts of Kharkov. The German army discovered the Katyn Forest massacre site after its invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941. Urbanski's three seasons of excavations in woods near Kharkov revealed that the majority of victims there had been shot in the back of the head with their hands tied behind their backs and their coats wrapped around their heads. A number were finished off with bayonets or a second shot.

   Excavations at the massacre sites, which began in 1994, were undertaken to determine the extent of the burial grounds and how many bodies they contained, and in preparation for Polish military cemeteries. The Kharkov burial area, the most thoroughly studied, yielded more than 10,000 artifacts associated with 6,400 bodies, including 2,100 Russians, victims of Stalin's purges, as well as 4,300 Poles. Of the Poles, 3,820 were officers interned at Starobielsk; the rest were probably civilians arrested during the short-lived Soviet occupation.--SPENCER P.M. HARRINGTON



So, maybe you can go and have a look?

[julle]

Above -- Soviet Foreign Minister Molotov signs the Nazi-Soviet Non-aggression Pact while German Foreign Minister Von Ribbentrop and Soviet leader Stalin look on under a portrait of Lenin, August 23, 1939. News of the Pact stunned the world and paved the way for the beginning of World War Two with Hitler assured the Germans would not have to fight a war on two fronts.

Text of the Nazi-Soviet Pact

The Government of the German Reich and The Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics

Desirous of strengthening the cause of peace between Germany and the U.S.S.R., and proceeding from the fundamental provisions of the Neutrality Agreement concluded in April, 1926 between Germany and the U.S.S.R., have reached the following Agreement:

Article I. Both High Contracting Parties obligate themselves to desist from any act of violence, any aggressive action, and any attack on each other, either individually or jointly with other Powers.

Article II. Should one of the High Contracting Parties become the object of belligerent action by a third Power, the other High Contracting Party shall in no manner lend its support to this third Power.

Article III. The Governments of the two High Contracting Parties shall in the future maintain continual contact with one another for the purpose of consultation in order to exchange information on problems affecting their common interests.

Article IV. Neither of the two High Contracting Parties shall participate in any grouping of powers whatsoever that is directly or indirectly aimed at the other party.

Article V. Should disputes or conflicts arise between the High Contracting Parties over problems of one kind or another, both parties shall settle these disputes or conflicts exclusively through friendly exchange of opinion or, if necessary, through the establishment of arbitration commissions.

Article VI. The present Treaty is concluded for a period of ten years, with the proviso that, in so far as one of the High Contracting Parties does not advance it one year prior to the expiration of this period, the validity of this Treaty shall automatically be extended for another five years.

Article VII. The present Treaty shall be ratified within the shortest possible time. The ratifications shall be exchanged in Berlin. The Agreement shall enter into force as soon as it is signed.

[The section below was not published at the time the above was announced.]

Secret Additional Protocol.

On the occasion of the signature of the Non-Aggression Pact between the German Reich and the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics the undersigned plenipotentiaries of each of the two parties discussed in strictly confidential conversations the question of the boundary of their respective spheres of influence in Eastern Europe. These conversations led to the following conclusions:

Article I. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement in the areas belonging to the Baltic States (Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), the northern boundary of Lithuania shall represent the boundary of the spheres of influence of Germany and U.S.S.R. In this connection the interest of Lithuania in the Vilna area is recognized by each party.

Article II. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement of the areas belonging to the Polish State, the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narev, Vistula and San.

The question of whether the interests of both parties make desirable the maintenance of an independent Polish State and how such a state should be bounded can only be definitely determined in the course of further political developments.

In any event both Governments will resolve this question by means of a friendly agreement.

Article III. With regard to Southeastern Europe attention is called by the Soviet side to its interest in Bessarabia. The German side declares its complete political disinterest in these areas.

Article IV. This Protocol shall be treated by both parties as strictly secret.

Moscow, August 23, 1939.

For the Government of the German Reich

v. Ribbentrop

Plenipotentiary of the Government of the U.S.S.R.

V. Molotov

[--am--]

1. Where apologies of the Poles for murder 20000 captured the Russian soldier in war of 1920? Or Russian it is possible to kill and for it anybody will not answer?
2. Ostensibly "east areas of Poland" are Western Ukraine seized by Poland in war of 1920.
3. Poland has grasped ÷àòü of Czechoslovakia. Poland an aggressor? Yes / Not
4. Poland per 38 years offered to Germany in common to attack on USSR. Poland an aggressor? Yes / Not
5. England and France have refused to sign with USSR the contract about safety in Europe per 39 years. USSR has remained one on one with Germany.  
6. That that you here throw it not the documents, so and not the proofs. It is a fiction. Propagation.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by --am--
1. Where apologies of the Poles for murder 20000 captured the Russian soldier in war of 1920? Or Russian it is possible to kill and for it anybody will not answer?
2. Ostensibly "east areas of Poland" are Western Ukraine seized by Poland in war of 1920.
3. Poland has grasped ÷àòü of Czechoslovakia. Poland an aggressor? Yes / Not
4. Poland per 38 years offered to Germany in common to attack on USSR. Poland an aggressor? Yes / Not
5. England and France have refused to sign with USSR the contract about safety in Europe per 39 years. USSR has remained one on one with Germany.  
6. That that you here throw it not the documents, so and not the proofs. It is a fiction. Propagation.

Poles murdering 20 000 captured Russian soldiers. First, what are your sources for this? Perhaps you can tell me more about those murders? Fact is I didnt even know that Poland and Russia fought a war in 1920. Was that Polish-Russian war in some way related to the Russian civil war between the reds and the whites?

ANYWAY am, perhaps it is true that Poles murdered 20 000 Russian soldiers, I honestly have no idea. But does that change the fact that the Katyn massacre was a horrible horrible crime? Two wrongs does not make one right. You cannot say that it would in some way excuse what the Russians did, neither does it justify it in any way.
Neither does it matter whether the Poles had been aggressive against Czeckoslovakia (how DO you spell that damn country). Neither does it matter what England or France signed or refused to sign in 1939. Get it through your head that NOTHING you can come up with will justify or excuse the murder of 25 000 Poles. It doesnt work that way.

When it comes to crimes against humanity (and by the Nuremberg definition, the Katyn massacre is such a crime) there are no justifications, no excuses, no "they did it first", NOTHING. There is just a crime against humanity and thats it.

You and Boroda are among the worst people I have ever run into on message forums like these. And I have been on many forums. It's like the both of you are channelling Stalin and Molotov at the same time. It is really scary to see the combination of denial and lies, otherwise only seen in David Irvin and his merry band of holocaust deniers.

[--am--]

Murder 100 000 people in Hiroshima a crime? Murder 80 000 in Tokyoa crime ? Murder 250 000 inhabitants of Dresden a crime?


All that I want to tell - USSR made such things, what made also other "democratic" countries. But the inhabitants of the "democratic" countries have forgotten these crimes (or them have helped to forget, having washed out brains).

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by --am--
Murder 100 000 people in Hiroshima a crime? Murder 80 000 in Tokyoa crime ? Murder 250 000 inhabitants of Dresden a crime?

[/b]
According to international law, no to all three, they were all legal acts of war. And the death toll at Dresden was between 35 000 -135 000. I dont know where that 250 000 figure comes from.

All that I want to tell - USSR made such things, what made also other "democratic" countries. But the inhabitants of the "democratic" countries have forgotten these crimes (or them have helped to forget, having washed out brains).

am, if that is what you are saying, then you wont find any argument here. If you are saying "Sure, we committed horrible crimes, and I'm not trying to defend that in any way, bot others committed similar crimes too, so we are not the only bad guys". Then I'll be the first one to agree with you.

The problem is that the impression I have gotten so far from you and Boroda is that you are saying "No, Russia did not commit any crime at all, that is just nazi propaganda." Usually followed by a "Shut up you nazi revisionist bastard". Heck, Boroda even said that he reported me to Swedish authorities when I had the nerve to claim that Russian soldiers raped german women in 1945.

[Angus]

Hiroshima? What is Hiroshima? Bahh, russian propoganda!
And it was the russians who bombed Dresden in overpainted lend-and lease anerican and british aircraft!
No, I better stop thinking like --am--

[--am--]

Originally posted by Hortlund


am, if that is what you are saying, then you wont find any argument here. If you are saying "Sure, we committed horrible crimes, and I'm not trying to defend that in any way, bot others committed similar crimes too, so we are not the only bad guys". Then I'll be the first one to agree with you.
 

You at all do not know international law. Read on leisure. There such methods of war are forbidden to all. That did not prevent the Americans and Englishmen to be at war by such ways.

Poland always was an enemy of Russia. 400 years she attacked us. The world was only then, when Poland was supervised by Russia. In other time it is continuous wars. So, that for USSR these seized officers were historical enemies. And enemies destroy. Look on USA and taliban " s. Them now have destroyed only because publicly have announced by an enemy of USA. So always was and always will be.


You judge the past from a position today. Today it seems awful, but it not so. In 50 years our grandsons will tell, that we lived in awful time, where continuous violence and crimes. USSR was among " good guys ".  
It is necessary to understand, that then " good guys " order itself so. And " bad guys " (Germany and her allies " carried out policy 100 times worse. In one thousand time it is worse. And you speak them, that they are equal.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by --am--

You at all do not know international law. Read on leisure.  

Nashwan? Is that you?