External view

[Kratzer]

Probably not a possibility, but it would be cool to have a separate little 'window' for each position, so you could scan them all, but without an external view.  Click on a window to take control of it, double click it to bring it up full screen, double click again to make it disappear.  Might be frame rate ruinous for some, but it would serve the purpose without having an unrealistic view.

[SKurj]

My thots...


Leave external view for all level bombers with more than 1 gun position.

All others such as IL2, 110(yup have to include, u will see why) dauntless, etc  have the 6 view be through the gunners eyes (or periscope as in 234)

This represents the intercom comms from the rear gunner position while restricting the view from the unrealistic 360 deg view of external.


SKurj

[CptTrips]

I agree with Wotan.  

Especially when the crushing firepower of the buff armada arrives.  That kind of firepower combined with perfect 360deg SA might prove unbalancing.

Yes they had 10 pair of eyes, but they were limited to the view they could see from their position.  You have the ability to instantaneously switch to any position.  What you see should be limited to what they could have seen from those positions.

IMHO.

Wab

[majic]

Problem is wab, all those eyes were scanning at the same time and communicating to give pilot the big picture.  As it is, I cannot disagree with Skurj who suggested only those with more than 2 crew get external view.  So, eliminate external for TBM, IL2, and the new early  war planes that are comin'.  Not sure about C-47.  Is that top bubble the only view port it had?

[Shane]

sheesh! does it matter how many eyes a buff had or using the external view?  they're dead, anyway.

fess up, it was your death by the TBM that initated this whine!

[SKurj]

+) my idea would increase the survivability of planes like the IL2...


SKurj

[Wotan]

one more post by me then Ill just read the replies.

1 all this talk about buff gunners communication to the pilot. External view does nothing to simulate this. You still have to use your hat/key pad to scan the sky.

The fighters arent suddenly appearing right next to you. You have time to search the sky from the gun positions. The top turret gives you a great view.

From this perspective it doesnt matter f the you have external view or not. Its still a hat / key press to scan the sky in external just as it is when changing gun positions. Theres no radio communications to the pilot now so this is a dead arguement.

However there is a point when external view allows the buff pilot to get too much information as the the position of an nme fighter that they never had even with 10 pair of eyes and radio communication.

In terms of time I would imagin that the tail gunner saying over a radio that bandit at our hi 7 and you hitting the key for the top turret would be about the same.

Its not like you have your hands full piloting the bomber. auto climb auto level make switching to gun positions ez enough.

SA just aint for fighters. If you chose to go into you bomb site when an nme fighter is on you then you deserve to die.

We dont have external views on gvs any more. If anything thats "less real" then having external views on buffs.

The only time when external view would be any use to a buffer is when he has lost visual on the attacking fighter. He then uses the external view to line up his guns.

There were blind spots on buffs. Fighters dont magically pop up at d900. Any scanning of the sky that can be done using external can be done with the same amount of ease of switching gun positions.

External view should not be part of the main for anyone.

[SKurj]

Originally posted by Wotan
Any scanning of the sky that can be done using external can be done with the same amount of ease of switching gun positions.

Hmmm... WRONG...

I can scan much faster with the external than i can from several gun positions.  As it is currently all guns aim towards the same point if they are able.  I hop in top turret scan, go to belly for example .. oh its looking the same way, so now I have to scan with it...  and while i am doing that...  who is checking above??
by the time i have scanned from the top turret i would have done a complete scan with external.  
In reality over enemy territory there would be 9 other guys scanning all the time, and I would just ask em to report in.

10 sets of eyes with most looking in different directions...

leave the friggen heavies alone...

with 1.10 sure we'll have 3x the guns to face, but i am sure any playability/balance issues will be resolved either before or shortly after they are implemented.

U won't have lancs outscissoring 262's anymore as that will immediately lose 2 buffs.  
An external scan with 3 buffs will take more time than it does now, cuz there will be 2 buffs blocking some of the sky.  

Without a gunner it maybe real tough to cover all the gun positions.  Attacks from angles placing one buff between you and another will limit defensive firepower as well.  (we'll have to see how valid this will be...)

Tanks on the battlefield...  a driver with a very limited FOV, and a commander with much the same...  No external is fine in gv's as their views are already grossly generous.

Wotan... you rarely bother with flyin buffs, so obviously this is a post directed at some sort of percieved 'advantage' they have over you.  I fly 190a5 a fair bit, and there is nothin I hate more than grabbin for a con and finding its a buff...

Lets wait and see how 1.10 plays out eh...

SKurj

[Revvin]

1 all this talk about buff gunners communication to the pilot. External view does nothing to simulate this. You still have to use your hat/key pad to scan the sky.

Its about taking the unfair load from the bomber pilot, he has to be gunner, pilot, radio operator, navigator and bombardier. In real life the pilot is sat in his seat at all times talking to everyone over the comms and in AH I have to sit in the gunner position and sit nice and still for the fighter not being able to make any evasives such as the corkscrew. As I and SOB said above, if you're not in your gun positions when the enemy is close then you will die its that simple.

However there is a point when external view allows the buff pilot to get too much information as the the position of an nme fighter that they never had even with 10 pair of eyes and radio communication.

In terms of time I would imagin that the tail gunner saying over a radio that bandit at our hi 7 and you hitting the key for the top turret would be about the same.

In real life a gunner would we looking around and not constrained by a virtual simulation view, he could stretch his neck forward, look over the edge of structures and turn his head without losing his orientation because a simulation viewpoint does just that. How many keypresses does it take for me to peer over the waist gunner to look at possible cons? I have to go through a myriad of keys to move the head position after selecting the gun position and pressing another key to pan the view.

SA just aint for fighters. If you chose to go into you bomb site when an nme fighter is on you then you deserve to die.

It's not about SA (I have bagged quite a few fighters I suckered in while over target) its about a very unrealistic occurance of fighters waiting for me to destroy the targets they are suppossed to be protecting. It's not realistic at all to have a bomber defenseless over target and as I said above gunners are not always forthcoming or in short supply.

Its not like you have your hands full piloting the bomber. auto climb auto level make switching to gun positions ez enough

When flying in formation you cannot rely on autoclimb its not that simply and I've proven this again and again in other sims as well as AH. To fly in close formation you really need to fly yourself. Personally I hate relying on auto when in flight unless I'm in lead position arranging the other bombers and assigning targets. A bomber pilot has to be pilot, navigator, bombardier, radio operator and gunner so its not as simple as engaging autopilot when flying in formation.

We dont have external views on gvs any more. If anything thats "less real" then having external views on buffs

It's a tradeoff for not having every one of your gunenrs calling out precise locations. Lasse idea is already used in WB and it gives a terrible lack of information compared towhat you would get over the comms from a human.

There were blind spots on buffs. Fighters dont magically pop up at d900. Any scanning of the sky that can be done using external can be done with the same amount of ease of switching gun positions

In real life no its not a problem because you had one man for every position, in AH not only are you constricted with a simulation view system but a flat 2D view from your monitor, add this to the fact that you have one man doing the job of all those gunners, the pilot, navigator, radio operator and bombardier. We also have a co-pilot but I've left out that position because in AH he does nothing, if I get shot as the pilot the plane goes down..perhaps the co-pilot is bound in his seat in AH?

[Wotan]

look you have an icon no plane is sneaking up on ya.

You dont really fly buffs you auto climb auto level

You dont have a navigator you have a real time clip board.

Its about taking the unfair load from the bomber pilot, he has to be gunner, pilot, radio operator, navigator and bombardier. In real life the pilot is sat in his seat at all times talking to everyone over the comms and in AH I have to sit in the gunner position and sit nice and still for the fighter not being able to make any evasives such as the corkscrew.

Load from the bomber pilot lol. You can fly the plane with rudder from the gun position. Hit full tight  rudder the plane will bank hold right rudder the nose dips. goto to full left rudder the plane banks the opposite way it hold left rudder it will dip it nose down. Buff gun positions are to stable a platform now. No gun shake and no jarring the gunner around while doing hard evasives.

Radio operator lol come on.

Just sit in the top turret scanning the sky making course adjustments using your rudder. its the same as external view.

You can see any con ib from d6k away. dots much further.

The advantage from buff external view comes when your with in d1.5 k and a fighter attacks from what should be a blind spot.  Instead of not seeing the fighter and doing a hard evasive you stay in external f3 view and turn to line up your guns with a full view of the attacker.

How many keypresses does it take for me to peer over the waist gunner to look at possible cons?

same number of keypresses to check all directions in external view

It's not realistic at all to have a bomber defenseless over target and as I said above gunners are not always forthcoming or in short supply

This has nothing to do with the topic but if i am bombing a base and see numerous nme fighters about and in a position to attack then I remain in my gun position until the threat is gone or i head to an alt target. As for "realistic" well how many single lancs flew around bombing airfields with laser accurracy and no escort?

Heres a formation tip

lead buff uses default climb and reduces man to 90 - 95%

the other buffs fly there planes from the nose position using rudder and auto climb making minor throttle adjustments to keep in position. I have flown in formation like that across the entire map with 9-12 buffs no more the 1.2k from lead to tail end charlie.
the lead buff scans the sky for cons. Then he used external view but he could have done the same from the top turret and by jumping gun positions. FYI in default auto climb when you adjust speed it doesnt reduce climb angle but time to alt. Unless of ofcourse you lower throttle far enough back where you dont have enough speed to maintain your climb. 5-10% man adjustments have little effect but it allows the guys in the formation to fine tune there speed.

Skurj like Ia said fighters arent popping out of thin air. If you are in the nose turret scanning up and down and pop to the tail do the same and its all clear then go back to the nose gun no fighter is gonna spawn right in front of you. If a fighter is close you are in the gun position anyway. You are effectively blind in all other directions.

Nose
Tail
top

as opposed to

back
backleft
backright
left
right
and up and down

its the same way when searching from a gunner position. No fighter is gonna appear in a millisecond and kill you from nowhere. Unless you werent paying attention to begin with.

When a fighter is in close you aint checking around anyway u are in a gun position. You get no radio communications.

Anyway my last post for real this time

[Roscoroo]

leave the views how they are it give the buff pilot the advantage of having all eyes scanning the skys . its hard enough hopping gunner positions when getting attacked in a buff .

when im in a buff im ussually doing things and playing with my kids .(I come back and check it every 5- 10 mins ),  i like having the option to look all around on the outside view for nme cons . It Makes the Mrs Roo happier and gives me more game time

[Beefcake]

From the way it sounds, all you guys want is HTC to make it even easier to kill buffs and defenseless goons right? I mean come on. All you want is the buff/goon pilot to have a harder time seeing you when you try to do a lame dead 6 attack. My tip is to learn to fly and attack buffs better.

[Wotan]

yup your right I suk and have never killed a single buff

why not just discuss the issues with out the the other bs. Revvin is a buffer he disagrees and has made his case. But those who throw in tripe like

Wotan... you rarely bother with flyin buffs, so obviously this is a post directed at some sort of percieved 'advantage' they have over you. I fly 190a5 a fair bit, and there is nothin I hate more than grabbin for a con and finding its a buff...

I dunno what you point is about flying an a5 is but this has nothing to do with the points of the thread.

for 1 dont know what they are talking about and second its not necessary to assume that because some folks would like to see something different is a result of some lack of skill.

FYI skurj do a search for jv44 and 3jg2 and look at our buff ranks we fly umm and we kill umm. The past 2 tours i rarely fly in the main so my individual buff killing scores arent what they were.

But I have about 5 films, in 1 I kill 7 b17s in a single g10 sortie no rearm. Plus I have my big week film of killing 5 buffs out right in 1 pass plus 3 assists.

Theres guys in my squad who have killed over 100 buffs per tour.

So all this stuff about alterior motivations is just crap.

As a matter of fact check my personal kd vrs buffs they aint to hard to kill. But ya see that aint what this thread is about anyway.

[Revvin]

You dont really fly buffs you auto climb auto level

Only when leading and assigning targets, asking for gunners for my flight and plotting the course, you don't know me or know how I fly so don't ussume things.

When I fly I switch between many channels, private, squad, country when trying to get gunners, ask for escort if none was available on takeoff, check the map, the strat to see if my target is still up check my speed vs climb and distance to target - roles carried out traditionally by a navigator and radio operator, true not as demanding as those roles in RL but more than the fighter pilot has to do and I still have to man all my own guns.

Just sit in the top turret scanning the sky making course adjustments using your rudder. its the same as external view

In real life the pilot would still have full control...rudder control...come on get real here that gives hardly any control worth using and certainly not enough to perform a defensive corkscrew.

same number of keypresses to check all directions in external view

Nonsense, if I wanted to look down over the gun in the waist gunner position I have to go through all the motions of moving hte head position then panning around then moving to another gun position, if I wanted to go back to that view I have to do it all over again as the view resets to default.

This has nothing to do with the topic but if i am bombing a base and see numerous nme fighters about and in a position to attack then I remain in my gun position until the threat is gone or i head to an alt target. As for "realistic" well how many single lancs flew around bombing airfields with laser accurracy and no escort?

The topic of laser norden's and single lancs will be pointless once v1.10 comes along and if you care to do a search you'll see I've asked for this several times here and in the 6 yrs I played WB. What will still be a problem is bombers will be still be defenseless over target due to a lack of gunners willing to gun for bombers. In your quest for more realistic bombers as you have moaned in the past about the laser norden then I trust you will lobby equally hard for something to be done about this problem also yes?

Heres a formation tip

I don' t need them, I fly formation just fine thankyou and have done for six years in WB and about two here and know full well the pro's and con's of the auto pilot modes.

The advantage from buff external view comes when your with in d1.5 k and a fighter attacks from what should be a blind spot

You think there is an advantage in being in external view at this point? in a split second you will be dead which is a lot shorter than the the time it takes to switch to a gunner position back from external view and then track a con with a gunner. If you're in external view at that point you may as well be making sure your parachute is on your back ready. At 1.5k you should be in gun position I know I am and it seems so are you as you contradict yourself with this sentence:

When a fighter is in close you aint checking around anyway u are in a gun position

So what are you arguing about? you've answered yourself in your own post.

[SKurj]

wotan my point was u don't fly buffs +) and still is +)

if u flew buffs even 25% o the time i doubt this thread would have even started...

but if u wanna start personal attacks... +) u can eat yer own tripe thanx

SKurj