External view

[Wotan]

I am posting this question here instead of the gameplay forum because I would like to discuss it and get as many folks input as possible.

I personally think external view for buffs should be removed like it was for gvs. In most buffs now you get a pretty clear view poppin around to the gunner positions with out the need of external view.

planes like the il2 and c47 shouldnt have external view anyway. The c47 should have an observer position added.  

Theres blind spots on some of these buffs that you really cant exploit with the 360 outa plane view. Fighters are restricted (as they should be) to internal view and they dont have a gunner position to pop to to see whos comin up and under them.

What do you guys think?

[Hortlund]

But what about the 10 pair of eyes you should have in a B17 vs the one pair of eyes you have in a fighter?

I agree about the Il-2 and C47 though.
And the 234 I suppose.

[Wotan]

you have 10 pair of eyes, with every click of a button adds 2 more pair of eyes.

most folks arent in external view when being attacked. They are in a gun position firing at the attacker. They can be attacked from another direction without seeing the other guy. Thats not real is it? I mean not all 10 pair of eyes are watching the guy attacking from 12 o'clock while a guy flys ded 6 and kills umm.

[Hortlund]

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of the outside views representing 10 pairs of eyes scanning their part of the sky at the same time and communicating via intercom.

[Revvin]

Agree on IL2 and C47 and probably the Arado too but the mere fact you have to spend time switching to these other views makes this unfair to the bomber pilot who already has to fly, gun and man the bombardier as well as the radio operator.

A real bomber would have the intercom buzzing with con reports as Hortlund says giving the pilot instant awareness of any threats around him.

[Wotan]

You dont get the same advantage in external view as you described with 10 simultaneous pair of eyes. you still have to change views with you hat or key pad. Seems it would take just about as long to do that as hitting a button for a gun position.

When bandits are in close your most likely in a gun position so 8 pair of eyes go blind anyway.

Plus you can fly from the gun position.

Im not saying theres any real advantage to external view except in certain cases.

Take a lanc fer instance. hes flying level i come in from hi 3 the top turret and copilot spot me.

I dive lo to come up and under now in rl the pilot would have to manuver but he would have no visual on me. Same with a 26. There are blind spots on buffs even with multiple pairs of eyes scanning the sky.

In ah if this happens ya hit f3 and fly like the pilot is watching every move.

the top turret for most bombers gives good all round view anyway.

[Revvin]

Plus you can fly from the gun position

Lets not get carried away shall we! I can move the rudders and thats its so thats hardly flying the plane from the gunner position which means I can't even perform the historical corkscrew defensive manouvre in the Lancaster.

Take a lanc fer instance. hes flying level i come in from hi 3 the top turret and copilot spot me.

I dive lo to come up and under now in rl the pilot would have to manuver but he would have no visual on me.

You answered your own point with this statement:

When bandits are in close your most likely in a gun position

Trying to use the external view from the gunner position is disorientating and restricting, takes a few key presses also so no I'm not in external view watching you below me I'm in my tail gun position waiting for you to rise, the con rises and I get a few rounds off and then I have the unrealistic task of switching to the next turret which in the short split second it takes means your plane should already be out of range if your attack was anywhere near historical. Even with two AI planes I will still only have a maximum of two players gunning meaning I cannot spread my gunners out ready to take on more than one attack from different angles.

If you want the external view taken away then I would want to see AI gunners like WB. It's bad enough I'm more or less defenseless in norden as it is without making it any easier for a fighter to attack me.

[Wotan]

my point is there is no advantage in time adjusting your view in external view you still need a key / hat press to check 3 8 6 etc.

Same amount of time as hitting 1 2 3

but you get too much of a view in certain circumstances.

Take my hi 3 example.

I dive below the line of site of the top turret  (we have no co pilot pos so it doesnt matter about him:)) I am to far forward to be seen from the the tall gunner.

With no external I would guess you would lose vis then lower nose and break right into me as i come in from lo 3. you dont really know what im doing so that would be the best evasive. Cut the angle and cause me overshoot.

Now in external you are in f3 so you manuver to line up tail gunner having a "not so real life" view of everything i am doing.

b26s and lancs do this all the time in ah. The only way they can get a gun position on ya is from external view. With out it they dont know what ur doing to get lined up.

As for death in bombsite its not like fighters are spawning 1 k away from ya. if you goto bombsite with a fighter attacking you and die well next time wait till the threat is gone. Also you can sucker a fighter into thinking ur in the site and nail him as he closes.

Anyway thats my points. I hope others through in their opinions.

[Tumor]

I agree with Wotan and Hortland

[Revvin]

As for death in bombsite its not like fighters are spawning 1 k away from ya. if you goto bombsite with a fighter attacking you and die well next time wait till the threat is gone. Also you can sucker a fighter into thinking ur in the site and nail him as he closes.

In rel life my bombardier would still be dropping his ord while the gunners fended off attack from multiple angles, in AH I need to get a gunner which are not always forthcoming and can only fire at one fighter at a time. This often leads to the very unrealistic case of fighters waiting for me to get over the target so they know I'm in norden and can have a turkey shoot. I've caught a few fighters out like this but its hardly realistic to have fighters wait for you to start destroying the targets they should be trying to defend.

b26s and lancs do this all the time in ah. The only way they can get a gun position on ya is from external view. With out it they dont know what ur doing to get lined up.

Your high 3 attack (a very unusual sight in AH..usually its dead six attacks all the way) is still a valid tactic, if the buff is in external view then he's going to die, you just can't switch views and then track the con with your guns fast enough. You'll find the majority of buffs will use external for long distance spotting where there are no blind spots for you to exploit but as soon as you move within 3000yrds they will be in the gun position tracking you. If they are not in the gun position ready to fire then they are in trouble if you use fast slashing attacks, of course if its the dead six approach you use then you are quite rightly toast before you can do any real damage.

b26s and lancs do this all the time in ah. The only way they can get a gun position on ya is from external view. With out it they dont know what ur doing to get lined up.

But bombers did manouvre to let their gunners get the shot in, the Lancaster pilots would communicate with their gunners and perfrom manouvres such as the corkscrew because they had to. If you think switching to pan view, then switching to pilot view then switching to gunenr view an then moving the guns and firing is giving them and advantage then I think you are wrong unless you are using slow attacks from dead six.

[lasse]

If we get the external view removed we should get added some form of gunner feedback.

Excample, I am in Pilots position or in bombardier position, I get an automatic voice telling me that an fighter is closing in at 7 o`clock high, these voices tells when a con is closer than 2K.
This way you get an fair warning, and the chance to jump into gunners position.

The gunners can only tell if the con is in their normal view, and will not be able to tell if the con is aproaching in a blind zone.

These voices  should be disabled if you have an extra gunner on board.

I think this would be more realistic that the existing ghost view, what do you think ?'


The Wild Vikings

Commanding Officer
Lasse

[Hortlund]

I think Wotan has a valid point that the external views let the bomber pilot see much more than he could in real life. There are no blind spots when in external view, this is very a-historical, and it can be used in a very gamey fashion.

On the other hand, in a real buff you had 10 pairs of eyes scanning the sky at any given time, and all these eyes were constantly communicating. There is no way to simulate this in AH right now UNLESS you allow the pilot to use the external view.

If you would remove the external view that would handicap the bomber pilot far more than the fighter is handicapped today by not being able to use blind spots.

But does it really matter? We all know that the bombers can spot us easy enough, but we also all know their weak spots. Where their guns cant touch us. I mean, how many fighter pilots attack a lancaster from below? How many climb up a ki-67s low 6?

So the bomber will always see the fighter, but the fighter will always controls the fight.

[Obear1971]

I love the external view in bombers.

I never use it for tacktical reasons anyhow, im to busy in the gunners turret looking for cons.

I use it mostly when im in formation with my squad mates, ushally on auto climb, sitting back with a beer waiting to get to target watching how cool all thos B17 look togeather

Keep it, its cool.

[SOB]

The external view is best used for scanning the skies looking for a possible attacker.  Once an attacker is in range, you'd best be at your guns.


SOB

[Turbot]

Bring fully crewable buffs and vehicles (especially PT boat) to aces high.