Why the p51 isn't as uber as people claim:

[Ice]

Ram....

It has been said that the 51 is not good for team fighting....not true.

A 51 and a spit are an excellent winged team.The spit turns em and the 51 burns em....did this for many years with old vets from AWDOS....works in AH as well...unfortunetly, not too much teamwork present here from what I can tell so far.

All the different planes are capable in the hands of a capable pilot...example: I flew last nite for one sortie...had six kills...was just north of 13 with high nme ib to 13....I got low and slo pulling for a shot before I was going to rtb...along comes Zigrat in a 51...I saw him in time to leave and was actually rtb when I saw him get low...I got greedy....missed him on my  first pass...turned to rtb and guess what? He was 1.1 my six...did my best run away like a screamin girlscout but he eventually caught me.

Point? I was not to capable last night...not the 51's fault...it was mine. I know guys who can fly anything in this game and beat most folks on a regular basis....too much attention is given to the planes and not enough to the pilots who fly them.

Im Out!

[This message has been edited by Ice (edited 09-01-2000).]

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Fariz:
Yeah, and I did not saw you in many dogfights, neither before, nor now  

Fariz

Only times when I saw you, were times when you were running some +30k high in Spitfrie..

Btw. I was surprised to find your Spitfrie fight at 2000ft (and you came in with about 10k advantage) and lower in the 1.03 as I were flying P-47D, guess who won  
I wonder whether P-47 is/was 'bit' overmodelled..

I do dogfight alot too...
In 109G-2 and C.205 dogfightning in furball is something cool  
But in FW190A-8, dogfightning isn't such great idea with nikis or spits...

[jmccaul]

The MA is so contrived that you will hardly ever get anything resembling real life this means you can mooch around at 30k on your own picking off lone tragets without any danger to yourself. In a more realistic enviroment engagements wouldn't be on a 1v1 level they would be on a squad v squad level where it means if you get in trouble and you just put your nose down and run you have deserted your squad mated/ bombers making their odds worse.

The thing about the 51 was it could be near the bombers at all times that is why it is a great and descisve aeroplane.

If we had similar circumstances on a 1/2 size map the 51 would probably not be as potent as it is in the MA but still shine due it's stirling qualities.

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Fariz:
Yeah, and I did not saw you in many dogfights, neither before, nor now    

Fariz

LOL now THATS funny   I have spent 2 days in a row dogfighting with a P51 (and I managed to kill a Niki yesterday in a turnfight  ), go figure what I do with a Fw190A5  

BTW when I had the joke...err...joke, I was #2 in Ladder   fighting in 109G2s and C202s ;D

hehehehe


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-01-2000).]

[Hangtime]

They key is energy and alt.. matters not what you have in your hands.. and not what you fly. If you have the alt/energy edge, you have the fight on your terms.. whatever those may be.  

Some folks have their favorite birds FM pegged.. and understand exactly what needs to be done in the myriad situations that crop up against various adversary A/C. Thats skill and experience.. it's what makes Udie so deadly in his 190, Hblair a killer in his 109 and Torque an asssain in his hot Blue Bendover. Catch these guys at a disadvantage and you'll discover they not only have their FM's nailed, they have yours nailed too.

 

Pony's have no special lease on magical survival powers.. they are in most cases even more vulnerable than most of it's adversaries.. weak wings, porked radiators, poor snapshots and lousy accel all play hardball against the pony pilot in a furball. Entering a furball with a pony is an invitaion to a nylon letdown. Furballing is much more survivable in a Spit..  

FWIW; a Pony is NOT this sim's best plane.. unless you wanna camp out on top, and do just as AKdeja described... and even then all it takes is one slightly higher adversary to rain on his parade.  

Hang

[StSanta]

Heh, my typical approach to a furball:

"Eeek, lotsa enemies. Question one: is anyone higher than me? If yes, is he heading towards me? If so, can I blow by him, reverse and still live?

If I cannot, is there any target below me within reach? Goooooo fasssssst in shoot shoot shoot, check six, evade bullets, check inb higher enemies and see if ya got time to reverse, reverse, go fassssssssst in check six, bail out.

 



------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Hangtime:
FWIW; a Pony is NOT this sim's best plane.. unless you wanna camp out on top, and do just as AKdeja described... and even then all it takes is one slightly higher adversary to rain on his parade.    

Hang

Hang...

Query results:


 ram has 40 kills and has been killed 13 times in the P-51D.
 
In 2 nights and 2 sorties tonight. 3 vulches and one M3.

And fighting in it,not running   And not exactly against newbies, believe me  

------------------
Ram, out
Erg/JG26 homepage

I WANT THIS PLANE!!!!!!!
 

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-02-2000).]

[AKDejaVu]

Ram?  Weren't you 17:3 in the P-51?  Have you gotten worse?  You've gone 23:10 since then.

Oh.. and 40:13 is almost identical to your kill percentage in a 190-a5.  Once again.. the plane is not uber.

AKDejaVu

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Ram?  Weren't you 17:3 in the P-51?  Have you gotten worse?  You've gone 23:10 since then.

Oh.. and 40:13 is almost identical to your kill percentage in a 190-a5.  Once again.. the plane is not uber.

AKDejaVu

Hehe...kept dogfighting it in 3 versus one figths all day long   sometimes I got all 3 cons DOGFIGHTING, most time not (hehehe hello Jihad   )

But for sure I didnt run in ANY moment. I even died once when I had speed advantage on the C205 following me, but I turned to clear asmodan's six ( he was out of ammo with a spit in his six). I got the spit...but the C205 got me (hello, Warchild   )

Anyway a 3-1 K/D in any plane for me is great , as I am used to 2-1K/D the most. Take your own conclussions...I took mine's.

I have nearly 2.5K/D in 190A5, using it in the role it excells in, dogfighting.

I have 3K/D in P51D, using it in the role it "CANT" be used because "CANT" Turn a toejam and at low speeds is "HOPELESS".lol.

 In the fight where I died at Jihad's hands,between A25 and A18 IIRC, I close fought with 3 cons for more than 3 minutes (much more imo, but seemed a lot of time anyway, was afun and absorbing fight indeed) before they got me, and ammo nearly payed for it (heheh hello, ammo   ) as I put a burst on him before Jihad finished me  ...

And I died that way some or less 5 times,I REFUSED to disengage using the P51 main advantage ,the speed.So I died a lot in those fights...well in fact I won 2 fights like those   3 on one (always the same way,I engage a low con and then 2 higher come and bounce me), and I won them twice. On a plane that can't do well in the defensive? LOL!.

Those two fights happened  at A7 . THere was ,too where I sat down 2 bouncing 109s while I was low and slow, and nearly got one (that disengaged)in the scissor. But the other one pinged me well.

Still I managed to outturn that 109s for more than 1 minute low and slow with flaps gone, one aileron gone and rudder gone. No toejam that I ended augering, I cant turn well with no rudder corrections     (jehu was that you?...dont recall it very well.  ).

Heh AKS, If I had run all the times I had 2 or 3 cons on my six, and I refused to clear sixes when that meant sure death, I'd have easily 40-8 K/D or so.

But ,see I am a fighter, not a runner.

And I clear sixes <G>



[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-02-2000).]

[RAM]

Oh, an I nearly missed the point...

I agree, P51 isnt uber.I never stated it. Still it is the most effective arena fighter in Aces High, it is the best of all, hands down.

And he who says that P51 cant be used to dogfight ,stay in the fight, and win it, he has no damned idea on how to pilot it.(see I suck in all planes and I still have a 40-13 K/D dogfighting in it and not disengaging at all  )

[AKDejaVu]

 

Still it is the most effective arena fighter in Aces High, it is the best of all, hands down.

Nope.. its not.  You did well in it.  Most do not.

As I recall... every time I saw you in it you had taken the time to climb to 20k and meet a substantially lower enemy over their base.  I didn't see you below 10k unless you were "egressing" since you don't "run".

I guess you call that furballing and getting right into the fight.  I don't.

AKDejaVu

[Udie]

 

Originally posted by funked:
That's why in war and in scenarios, you try to fly the same plane as your teammates.    

 In the book "Baa Baa Blacksheep" by Pappy Boington he tells of a mission where the 214 was to escort bombers and hvy p38's to Raboul.   He said the mission was FUBAR from the start because the p38's were to fast too keep formation with the bombers and the f4u's were faster than the p38's.  Alot of pilots got shot down that day because of it too.  

Udie

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Nope.. its not.  You did well in it.  Most do not.

As I recall... every time I saw you in it you had taken the time to climb to 20k and meet a substantially lower enemy over their base.  I didn't see you below 10k unless you were "egressing" since you don't "run".

I guess you call that furballing and getting right into the fight.  I don't.

AKDejaVu

OK, calling all the people...Jehu, Warchild, Hitech, etc...pleaseee comeon....at wich altitude did I engage you?   did I "egress"?

LOL!

Dejavu, you dont like me. Its okay, but please stop saying nonsense...yes I climb up to 20K in P51 IF I CAN (most times I cant), but I dont shudder If I must go to treetop level ,in fact I LOVE going to treetop level.

I'm still a 190 driver. And so, I love low level fights way more than high level one.

BTW you only saw me once in P51   and was much lower than 20 K      

[AKDejaVu]

 

at wich altitude did I engage you

12k.. as you were just climbing from an engagement.

The next two times I saw you.. you came in at 20k with 3 other 51s.  You guys only attacked single targets.. though most of you still went down.  I tried to engage once while co-alt.. only to have the 51 fly away to engage someone once I was no longer a threat.

I don't have any problems with the use of these tactics.  But then, I've never got sanctimonious in the forum about it either.  The 190 and the p51 spend alot of time "extending".  It seems to be called "running" whenever it happens to you.

That is what is called a double-standard.  That is what makes you a hypocrite.

 

Dejavu, you dont like me. Its okay, but please stop saying nonsense

Just as soon as you stop calling everyone "HO DWEEBS!" and "runstangs" and whatever excuse you use for being killed.  I'm quite tired of your holier-than-though attitude and the thought of you being any kind of a trainer actually worries me.

You don't have the aptitude or expecience to do it.  Despite what you think of ourself.

I only know that if I knew as much when I was 22 as I thought I did... I'd be ruler of the world by now.  I get the feeling you haven't quite realized that isn't going to happen for you either.

 

...yes I climb up to 20K in P51 IF I CAN

You see RAM.. this game offers two sides to everything.  I know what I've seen you do... and everything else I have to hear about.  Once it gets to that stage, it becomes extremely suspect.  From some more than others.

AKDejaVu

[RAM]

well you earned it. No more answers for you.

Still, I will do a P51 sortie tonight, and film it. Only one.And I'll post it. That way you'll see how do I fly it.

For now, I feel no need to argue with you. THe people who I have engaged know how do I fly. I wont lose my sleep for someone like you.