Author Topic: Why the p51 isn't as uber as people claim:  (Read 1050 times)

Offline AKDejaVu

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Why the p51 isn't as uber as people claim:
« on: August 31, 2000, 10:03:00 AM »
The P51s speed and hi-speed agility give it several excellent qualities as a fighter.  The ability to escape bad situations... the ability to out maneuver planes at high speed... and so on.

While these are excellent traits and lend themselves to high kill streaks, one serious flaw is being overlooked:

This plane simply sucks for defending your countrymates unless they are flying one too.

There were 4 of us defending a nothern base from continuous waves of attacks.  The waves were expected since the base was well within enemy territory.  The furballs were fast and furious with 109s, f4s, p47s, 190s, Spits, Typhoons, and a lone p51.

The enemy was primarily flying 109s, F4s and 190s.  We were keeping pretty even on k/d (maybe a slight advantage to us)... but we were right at our base and able to re-plane to help other friendlies while the enemy had to take the time to get back to our base.

Eventually, an enemy P51 arrived and dove through the furball.  A quick jink later and he was on his way out without landing a shot.. with one plane lazily chasing.  That plane broke off as the P51 continued running.  The P51 eventually came back (all other cons had been downed) and dove through again.  I don't know if he got someone or not.  I don't believe he did.  He then climbed out of the fight as we all grabbed alt at the base.

As the next wave attacked, the same thing happened.  By this time, we'd gained a distinct energy advantage and the enemy was too spread out to be effective.  Yet the p51 continued swooping in and out... never being paid much attention.

We couldn't catch the plane.  It out zoomed us every time.  He got no kills and cleared zero pilots.  He contributed nothing.  He was a neusance at best.  I wonder what his kill streak was at?

Planes that give you a high survivability rate usually do it by being able to keep you out of the fight.  This is the p51's strength.  Sometimes, however, you need to be in the middle of the fight to help out.  This is the 51's weakness.

I'm sorry, but if I see a p51 try to turn in the middle of a furball.. I say "oh.. goodie ".

Its a decent ride, and can be quite a neusance.  Its just that in order to be effect with it in the air... you are seldomely able to be effective with it in the war.

Some people manage to do things in this plane that go against the grain of this argument.  Those are people that spend many hours playing this game and learning the neuances of the flight model... or have tons of time flying the 51 and have learned that one plane inside and out.

Uberness is not achieved by requiring a skilled pilot to be behind the stick.  Uberness is a plane's ability to make even a bad pilot look good.

Also... going from a 190/109 to a p51 is not that great of a leap.  I think its even less of a leap than most LW pilots are willing to admit... and its not always a leap up.

AKDejaVu

funked

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Why the p51 isn't as uber as people claim:
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2000, 11:29:00 AM »
That's why in war and in scenarios, you try to fly the same plane as your teammates.    

The main thing in AH is scenarios.  The MA is just a training ground.    

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-31-2000).]

Offline RAM

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Why the p51 isn't as uber as people claim:
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2000, 01:50:00 PM »
Good post AK. In fact points several good things about P51 and the special weakness of it: if he loses E he is lost.

Still, it can make you decline the fight. You can bounce one or two times into a furball and try to kill one. As long as you know when to disengage, it will bring you home.

But is that a weakness?...really?...tell me if you put wardog in that plane, or Hangtime, are you sure he wouldn't have cleared any six or killed any plane?...for that same thing, put that pilot you saw in ANY BnZ plane and you'll say that it is useless for clearing sixes and teamwork.

The factor deciding that is the pilot, not the plane. THe P51 can fight as well as any other plane here, but the use most pilots give it doesnt allow it to show all its qualities.

Its a bet, a safe one. This P51 you are speaking of is the kind of people that pisses me in MA, the ones who know to run and bounce but not to fight. You CAN fight in P51, you CAN turnfight with it for short periods (I did it yesterday). but you MUST know when to disengage.

I find P51 like an all around better Fw190A8, if we forget about rollrate. P51 climbs better, dives better, zooms better, turns better, keeps E better,its faster, has better weapons (I am serious) and its hands down better over 10K than A8.

compared with G10, P51 is slower accelerating, has speed comparable, and of course climbs worse. But it has better handling at all speeds, specially over 300mph, dives way better, turns better, has way better weapons, rolls much better, and has 2 times the rudder authority the G10 has-...not to talk about lack of authority in elevators on G10.

Compared with A5 P51 accelerates and climbs worse under 10K, and, of coure,rolls much worse. Over it, it is better in all things. It is way faster at all altitudes, dives way better, has better weapons (I am serious),has comparable E retention...in short ,P51 is better hands down over 10K and is better at low altitudes (can rule the engagement, defining the when and how of the engaging/disengaging).

As arena plane, P51 is the best hands down. Fw190A5 comes near ,but not VERY near.

Offline Fariz

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Why the p51 isn't as uber as people claim:
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2000, 02:15:00 PM »
51 is one of the worst planes in arena. I do not talk about killing streak and survivability. I do talk about its tactical arsenal. It seems to me, that the only one really winning strategy for p51 is hit and run, turn, hit and run, turn... and so on. It can run away, but it is poor in almost everything else. May be I did not flied it enough, so not enough expirience, but when I did I found it extremely boring plane. Well, I flied a lot against it. At least for spitfire IX it is not a trouble. I even have no problems with going away from it when I have it level with me.

Fariz

Offline air_guard

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Why the p51 isn't as uber as people claim:
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2000, 02:18:00 PM »
p51 was good in the real world not in a sim  
the situations here is more diffrent, we wont stay up for 4 hours in one sortie and get back alive   (or if the points was diffrent for survivng we could do it that way )
We wanna kill somthing here and dont giva toejam aobut coming home lol.
what they could do is give a p51 more points for a kill than lets say a spit and so on .

airguard


Offline Fishu

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Why the p51 isn't as uber as people claim:
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2000, 03:19:00 PM »
I find P-51 fairly maneuverable.
When I've made lots of kills in P-51 in a sortie, I have zoomed my opponent very far, unlike with Bf109 with in I have to break off because I can't pitch up enough.

For Spitfrie driver Fariz (r) it sure is boring to drive P-51 when it does not make some unbelievable maneuvers in the scale of Spitfrie IX.

Only plane that really can give me a headache when I fly P-51, is Bf109G10, thats the only plane which I really don't like to see around my P-51.
All it takes for smart 109 driver to kill P51, is to force 51 low and then vertically pick it off.
Though, I don't know about Yak-9 yet, it seems very capable plane what I have tried it, if not better than Bf109G10. (I sure love the way Yak flies)

Nath-BDP

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Why the p51 isn't as uber as people claim:
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2000, 03:40:00 PM »
A G10 flown right can whoop a Yak9 in a co-alt engagement, yak cannot match the 109s zoom, speaking from experience of duels between me(Yak) and Citabria(G10). Yak can easily out-scissor G10 though, both vertically and horizontally.

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[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 08-31-2000).]

Offline BotaBing

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Why the p51 isn't as uber as people claim:
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2000, 04:37:00 PM »
I think it is important to judge these planes in the context of their historical use and significance.

The Brits, in talking about the P-51, would jokingly say "Well....it can't do everything the Spit can do, but it can do it over Berline."

The P-51 is a beautifal aircraft. I like to think of it as a Dive-Fighter. Whereas in this game, where you up every 5 minutes, and often face foes in much more maneuverable aircraft, real life wasn't that way.

P-51's were desinged to be long-range figter escorts. They maneuver well at high altitude, they were one of the fastest planes of their day, and they carried an impressive arsenal and payload.

The picture of a wing of 6 P-51's flying about 4k higher than a whole bomber group sticks out well in my mind.

If a wing of 109's were to approach the group, the P-51's would simpyl dive on them, boom and zoom, and turn back for another pass to pick up whoever they didn't kill the first time.

I think that the P-51's E-loss is not entirely accurately modeled in the game. It seems to me that it is not sufficiently maneuverable at slower speeds, etc. But, I don't know, I trust that to the designers.

If your goal is to re-up again and again against oncoming attackers, then pick a spit, forget the p51. The p51 gave up some manueverability in exchange for an 8.5 hour fly time.

Offline Fishu

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Why the p51 isn't as uber as people claim:
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2000, 05:31:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by BotaBing:
If your goal is to re-up again and again against oncoming attackers, then pick a spit, forget the p51. The p51 gave up some manueverability in exchange for an 8.5 hour fly time.

I'd really like to see them P-51Dweebs fightning with at minimum of 50% fuel and more  
"like in real life"

Offline Fariz

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Why the p51 isn't as uber as people claim:
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2000, 11:14:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu:
I find P-51 fairly maneuverable.
When I've made lots of kills in P-51 in a sortie, I have zoomed my opponent very far, unlike with Bf109 with in I have to break off because I can't pitch up enough.

Having terrible controls I flied spit last 4 months exclusivly as energy weapon. I could not enter dogfights, because I had much less chances against even less expirience pilots.

I am sure, that it is a big difference in flying planes with throttle/rudder pedals/good joystick vs. cheap 2 button stick without even view caps. So my expertise based only on my expirience. BUT I find g10 much better ride than 51, at least more interesting one.

I think when back I will give a try to 51 too for couple of weeks. But russian planes first  , want try la5 and yak9.

Fariz

Offline brendo

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Why the p51 isn't as uber as people claim:
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2000, 04:19:00 AM »
<shakes head>
AKDejaVu, the REAL air war was not a big turn fighting furball.

Y'all could take a few lessons from that Stang pilot.


Offline Badger

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Why the p51 isn't as uber as people claim:
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2000, 06:36:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by brendo:
<shakes head>
AKDejaVu, the REAL air war was not a big turn fighting furball.

Y'all could take a few lessons from that Stang pilot.


Right on brendo..... <S>

Regards,
Badger

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[This message has been edited by Badger (edited 09-01-2000).]

Offline Fishu

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Why the p51 isn't as uber as people claim:
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2000, 08:04:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Fariz:

I am sure, that it is a big difference in flying planes with throttle/rudder pedals/good joystick vs. cheap 2 button stick without even view caps. So my expertise based only on my expirience. BUT I find g10 much better ride than 51, at least more interesting one.

I hope to get throttle/rudder pedals someday too :I
Maybe newer stick too than CH f16 combatstick.

Offline RAM

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Why the p51 isn't as uber as people claim:
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2000, 08:34:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Fariz:
I am sure, that it is a big difference in flying planes with throttle/rudder pedals/good joystick vs. cheap 2 button stick without even view caps. So my expertise based only on my expirience. BUT I find g10 much better ride than 51, at least more interesting one.


I did just that for 3 months <G>...the yoke I had had one button not working and a litte thottle. I now have F16combatstic and rudder pedals. THe difference is notable on the snapshots, but not THAT different (I am still using keys to change views). Sure it is comfortable to have WEP, autotrim on angle and rudder and elevator trims on the stick, but when I had the joke...er yoke   I did as fine as I do now...

What is indispensable is a good set of RUDDER PEDALS...believe me, I had to buy them and the difference is incredible.


Offline Fariz

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Why the p51 isn't as uber as people claim:
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2000, 09:17:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu:
I hope to get throttle/rudder pedals someday too :I
Maybe newer stick too than CH f16 combatstick.

Yeah, and I did not saw you in many dogfights, neither before, nor now  

Fariz