Author Topic: Machine Guns versus Cannons, Relative Lethality  (Read 5487 times)

Offline Hangtime

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Machine Guns versus Cannons, Relative Lethality
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2000, 05:19:00 PM »
Verm...

Thank You. This is a subject dear to my heart; I've started threads on it; howled about it; moaned about it; whined about it and kicked the gawd-damned cat more times than I can count over it. Never had any way to PROVE my points.. only 'gut feeling' and experience with a 25 year old MaDuece as a grunt..

The statistical data speaks volumes. Finally; emperical proofs for the developer. Please... HTC take note! The .50's on my P51 are pitiful shadows of what they should be.

I've gunned at 10% the last 4 tours. I can hit what I shoot at. (thanks to Rude's gunsight) The deflection shots are almost hopeless with the .50's. When I play with the unmentionable AC my deflection shooting is frightining. Not because I get more hits with cannons in deflection shots (I don't)... but because the cannon hits kill instantly. With the P51 only low AOT shots with sustained time on target can kill reliably. I contend that as snapshot weapons, the .50's should be significantly more lethal.

As Verm has stated; as I have stated numerous times in the past... don't cripple the cannons... just model the .50's better.

Again.. Verm. Thank you sir. No matter what comes of this; you got my undying respect for figuring out how to PROVE it.

Hang
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Offline Pongo

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Machine Guns versus Cannons, Relative Lethality
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2000, 05:34:00 PM »
The M2 cannons are really that much more leathal then M2 50 cals. All that Verm has proven is that the game is modeled accuratly.
Its the comparison of the M2 20mm and the other cannons in the game that is questionable.


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Offline Hangtime

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Machine Guns versus Cannons, Relative Lethality
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2000, 06:05:00 PM »
I chose to disagree.. 6 .50's on convergence are devestaingly lethal. They ain't in this sim.

Dead is dead. Except for here in AH. Here yah need a cannon, or if not; a lot of time on target with yer MG's. Booooooooooo!

Hang
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Offline Pongo

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Machine Guns versus Cannons, Relative Lethality
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2000, 07:33:00 PM »
Hang...
The rof is similar,
Velcocity is similar,
Projectile weight is triple,
one explodes like a grenade on contact. the other nocks a hole.
I LOVE THE 50 CAL. Still remember the feel of that double grip bucking in my hand....
But you canot increase its capabilities beyond what the physics indicate.
Verm in my opion has validated the existing model more that challenge it.
Get your % up near hangs...you will get fewer assists.

-towd_

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Machine Guns versus Cannons, Relative Lethality
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2000, 07:44:00 PM »
ok how about somthing completly different. rather than state the charts lets think about the theory. the real reason the 50 were chosen is the damage the inflict is lesser that the cannon explosive rounds. one simple sentence,

the damage caused by a round is purportional to   mass of the provectile   and gometric to velocity. the idea is you get a great trajectory frome speed ,more dense projectile cause its solid and with all these things giving you a flat trajectory the very hypersonic bullet becomes even more so ( i.e it stays hypersonic for a long time) and the hypersonic wave af a 50cal passing thru a aircraft does ALOT of collateral damage similar to the explosion caused by the slower higher drag cannon round (the usa had acces to whatever weapons it wanted in ww2 and 50s were loved for their ability to reach out and touch at a distance, the prob here is they get (nerfasized TM) at d 350+ it seems.

opens mouth closes mouth does an about face and marches off  to bedroom muttering about how hogs from korea should stay there .

Offline Fariz

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Machine Guns versus Cannons, Relative Lethality
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2000, 07:56:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime:
Verm...

I've gunned at 10% the last 4 tours. I can hit what I shoot at. (thanks to Rude's gunsight) The deflection shots are almost hopeless with the .50's.

I have to agree here, on deflections .50 now are almost useless, unless it is a long deflection. But also I have to mention that the situation when most of the fighter pilots, including myself, simply avoided 17 because their .50 made them one of the most deadliest weapon around is in past with the beta.

The only thing I agree 100% is that game ballance issues should not make some weapon to be overmodeled and some undermodeled. I love this game due to fact that it is a sym, not arcade, and I want it to stay as much sym as possible. If .50 were really as deadly as you say -- then I want them to be deadly heer. But, sorry hang for saying it, I do not want back the time when p51 was the best buff killer in the AH. I simply do not believe it could be in reality.

Fariz

Offline Pongo

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Machine Guns versus Cannons, Relative Lethality
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2000, 09:12:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by -towd_:
ok how about somthing completly different. rather than state the charts lets think about the theory. the real reason the 50 were chosen is the damage the inflict is lesser that the cannon explosive rounds. one simple sentence,

the damage caused by a round is purportional to   mass of the provectile   and gometric to velocity. the idea is you get a great trajectory frome speed ,more dense projectile cause its solid and with all these things giving you a flat trajectory the very hypersonic bullet becomes even more so ( i.e it stays hypersonic for a long time) and the hypersonic wave af a 50cal passing thru a aircraft does ALOT of collateral damage similar to the explosion caused by the slower higher drag cannon round (the usa had acces to whatever weapons it wanted in ww2 and 50s were loved for their ability to reach out and touch at a distance, the prob here is they get (nerfasized TM) at d 350+ it seems.

opens mouth closes mouth does an about face and marches off  to bedroom muttering about how hogs from korea should stay there .
The USAF must have found that that hypersonic wave was not equal to the destuctive power of 20mm cannons. Or its existance was harder to prove to pilots..So they upgraded everything to cannons. They didnt have the option of wishing there 50cals to be like cannons.
 



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Offline Maniac

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Machine Guns versus Cannons, Relative Lethality
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2000, 02:50:00 AM »
Noooooooo! leave the 50´s alone! i use the 6x50´s solution all the time and it aint nuthing wrong with lethality! what conv are you guys using anyway!?

Dont take this sim yet another notch to Quakers high please, if anything is needed to be done then it is to lover the lethality of the cannons instead.

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[This message has been edited by Maniac (edited 03-28-2000).]
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-towd_

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Machine Guns versus Cannons, Relative Lethality
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2000, 07:33:00 AM »
got this months aviation history where they talk about settin the conversion on a 50 cal plane. at a conservative 1200 to 1500 ft there is plenty of energy in one round at 1/4 mile to crack open a engine block like a egg ( have witnessed penitration of one 1 1/2 plate steel at 300 yds ) .
they aint for killin buffs the magic of the 50 cal is its long trajectory and hyper velocity. once planes got where they could lug around multiple heavy bellybutton cannons they were obsolecent , but note any "small and manuverable" usa plane of ww2 era and some jets still used 50s cause they were lighter had a greater effective range higher rate of fire and one burst usualy killed just fine unlike here where you see 10-15 hit sprites and nothin happens generaly if they past d300 or so cant name the nunber of times i have been d 900 on somones tail usin the 50s to put rd after rd into a bog with them almost unconcerned
a 50 cal at such a range i assure you from personal experience would not with all probability bounce off anything short of main tank armor i.e. you would open up on a apv or light armor vehical at 900 ft no prob with assured penitration.

and hyper sonic wave is hard to prove? please get 2 boxs of 22 cal ammo one normal one hypersonic stinger tm  and fire them into somthing that will gage the damage block of gelitin is best but a 2 litre bottle will do fine. shoot them and see the difference it will be massive same buller 4 or 5 times the damage why? your hard to prove wave.

50s are not as powerefull as connons up close but they have superior effective range and because of high speed, high density, low drag and hypersonic wave effect they carry their slightly lower damage (but higher penitration potential at all ranges) to a much greater range, they were just as good as cannons for a non buff killer planes that is why the greatest air force/army/navy  in the world used them for a period longer than most mens lives sheesh get a life.

they are nerfed get over it htc turn them up, we dont know why you tuned um down and we dont like it.  

Offline Maniac

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Machine Guns versus Cannons, Relative Lethality
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2000, 08:05:00 AM »
"they are nerfed get over it htc turn them up, we dont know why you tuned um down and we dont like it. "

I like it the way it is! please please HTC dont turn lethality up...



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Offline pzvg

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Machine Guns versus Cannons, Relative Lethality
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2000, 09:15:00 AM »
Invalid Datum point. Need penetration data for the 20mm to really cook this, As I recall, a noted problem with the 20mm was the explode on contact issue, which will strip away skin,but by being outside the aircraft, did not do structural damage.
The .05 had a decent pen at all ranges, but was small in area, which meant inflicting structural damage took repeated hits in a small area. The move away from .05's in the 1950's was due to jet combat being a faster form than WWII, You did not have time to hold on a target as much so you needed better results with less "holdtime" In AH I think it might be the damage model which has changed somewhat,a slight spacing in the "hit boxes" or what have you would lessen the repeatability of the .05's while leaving the one hit one explosion of the cannons intact.
My viewpoint, not too scientific I know but then again, I'm not a scientist
Long live Texas instruments!  

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Offline Westy

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Machine Guns versus Cannons, Relative Lethality
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2000, 09:18:00 AM »
"I can hit what I shoot at. (thanks to Rude's gunsight)"

 Hangtime, any chance I could get a copy? I searched the site by Rude's username and checked out most of his posts but unable to find it or a link to it.
 
-Westy

Offline RangerBob

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Machine Guns versus Cannons, Relative Lethality
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2000, 09:37:00 AM »
Same here. I've been wondering where I can get this "Rude's Gunsight"

Thanks

Ranger Bob

Offline Spritle

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Machine Guns versus Cannons, Relative Lethality
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2000, 09:55:00 AM »
Vermillion,

I should have clarified that the Ho-5 was the Army Airforce weapon.  You are however incorrect about the quantity.  No single place in the book states that the Ho-5 was the most widely used.  You actually have to read the entire book.  Just look at the armament for each aircraft and the breakdown of which variants carried what weapons.  It's pretty easy to see that the Ho-5 was the most common on Army Airforce aircraft.  

The Ho-5 was used extensively on:

Ki-45, 61, 100, 46, 43, 44, 84, to name a few.  

Please don't read extensively as exclusively, because there were exceptions, however these are listed in the book.

On a different note, I forget who was posting about the energy imposed on an aircraft by a bullet.

This is how it works.  The kinetic energy imposed on the aircraft is the difference between the kinetic energy of the bullet before it enters the target and the kinetic energy of the bullet after it exits the target.  No more no less.  

What this means is that if the bullet lodges somewhere say in an engine block then there is a great amount of energy transfer however if the bullet hits a relatively benign area like say the aft fuselage or wing tip then a much smaller amount of energy is transferred.  A cannon on the other hand can transfer much more energy to the target for two very important reasons.  First, is a higher kinetic energy due to greater mass and second, is the fact that a cannon carries an explosive charge.  This charge adds an even greater amount of energy.  However the explosion has a dual effect.  It can cause massive damage from the force of the explosion and the smaller fragments of bullet can now impose more of the initial kinetic energy to the target because their energy is now dispersed over a larger area.  

I don’t think that the .50s are good snap shot weapons.  I forgot what you said your hit percentage was Vermillion but if it was between 3 and 5 percent then in any given shot only 3 to 5 percent of your bullets are connecting.  

I think that the .50s are probably modeled correctly.  I think what we are seeing is that gunnery skills need to be 5 times better with machine guns than with cannons.

Towd,

No offense but your .22 analogy is incorrect.  Aircraft are not made out of ballistic jelley or milk jugs full of water.  A more accurate example would be to go shoot at empty beer or coffee cans with the two different rounds.  Your case only works if a bullet hits a fuel tank.  

Spritle


[This message has been edited by Spritle (edited 03-28-2000).]

Offline Pongo

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Machine Guns versus Cannons, Relative Lethality
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2000, 10:11:00 AM »
Jeesh towd. for that entire life there was a vocal group trying to get everything upgraded to cannons. The plane we are comparing it to here was upgraded from 6 * 50 Cal....WHY DO YOU THINK THEY DID THAT...
and with most later non jet aicraft...
I am only an old infanteer so things have to be pretty simple for me.
The initial velocity of the 50 cal is 40fps LESS then the M2 20 mm. You are stating that because of its projectile density and shape it maintains its velocity better..infact it gets HYPER velocity..
This is starting to sound like the dont take my M1911 away debate of years past.

Honestly sounds like nonsense to me.
Ill fly the 51 a little and see how the guns feel. They seem to hurt me plenty when they hit. And they still seem to have better range then the German guns, right or wrong that has been the case since beta.


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