Machine Guns versus Cannons, Relative Lethality

[Spritle]

Verm,

I believe if you read my second or third post it clearly says that I should have said "Army Airforce cannon".  

Spritle

[RAM]

About Mg151 and "circles"    

Yes,Pyro I understand we are all a bunch on whiners...But if I talk about Mg151 is because something. Its a matter of feeling, I feel that a 4-cannon F4U1-C (oops    ) has WAY more punch than a fw190A-8 in snapshots. Well I know Hispanos were better than Mg151s...but German 20mm rounds were HIGHLY damaging, too. It is fun to see how in a straight HO, A Spitfire has nearly the punch of a Fw190. Either Hispanos are too powerful, or Mg151 are too few.

Of course, again is a matter of feeling. I used to drive Corsairs a lot when I started here, and I knew that a Snapshot with it was instant death for the enemy. When I changed to 190 with 4 151s on board I expected same puch...and I was very surprised when I saw the difference.

Of course, If Pyro says they are well modelled, then I must believe him. The problem is that he has said nothing about it. So far he has said few about 50 cals matter...so I guess he wont say much about German 20mms too    . But as the FM is so realistic I dont see why weapons aren't going to be well modelled, too.
It was more a question than a whine, Pyro. It would be really nice from u to give us some tips about the damage done by the different weapons here in AH, because right now we are playing with the "feeling", Statistics, history and so. So we are relatively "blind"


CavemanJ: I agree with the B17 being killed easily compared with WWII...B17s were TOUGH!...but if you want that toughness,then the defensive weapons MUST be turned down on accuracy...50 cals may be not as powerful as they were ,but still seems there is an EEGS system on the gunner's turrets!!!
(as in WWII bombers didnt kill 4 fighters per sortie!!!). Right now is REALLY difficult to make a buff go down before the fighter goes down too, if they are made tougher, then they will be impossible to kill.


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-29-2000).]

[Vermillion]

Ok Spritle you said  

According to "Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War" by Rene J Francillon ISBN 0-87021-313-X the rate of fire for the Ho-5 Type 1 20mm Cannon was 850 rounds per minute with a muzzle velocity of 2,460 feet per second. This cannon was the most widely used version in Japanese aircraft.

I responded this

Spritle, where in Francillons book does it say the HO-5 was the most common Japanese 20mm cannon? Cause I have it sitting on my lap. The HO-5, while a spectacular performer, was the late war cannon used by the Japanese Army, who had earlier used the the HO-3, and then a few shipments of German MG151's. Actually the most common Japanese 20mm cannon was the Japanese Navy's Type 99, relatively a very poor cannon in most versions.

And then you replied

I should have clarified that the Ho-5 was the Army Airforce weapon. You are however incorrect about the quantity. No single place in the book states that the Ho-5 was the most widely used. You actually have to read the entire book. Just look at the armament for each aircraft and the breakdown of which variants carried what weapons. It's pretty easy to see that the Ho-5 was the most common on Army Airforce aircraft

Yes at one point you say "Army cannon" but then you turn around and tell me that I was incorrect about the quantity and that I needed to read the entire book.

So I did and posted the results for you. Simple enough.

Enough with this tit for tat, I'm done.




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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[Spritle]

Verm,

This is what my quantity statement was referring too.  I haven't figure out how to do the little quote jobbie so this is as good as it's going to get.

You said: "Spritle, where in Francillons book does it say the HO-5 was the most common Japanese 20mm cannon? Cause I have it sitting on my lap. The HO-5, while a spectacular performer, was the late war cannon used by the Japanese Army, who had earlier used the the HO-3, and then a few shipments of German MG151's."

I was responding that the Ho-5 was in fact more widely used than the Ho-3 and the Mg151.

That is all.  Also I wasn't Implying that you hadn't read the entire book I was just stating that there wasn't a single reference stating weapon quantities, but rather this information was gleaned throughout the text.

Spritle

[weazel]

 

oh and icons below the planes

HiTech answered this one some time back-it`s a limitation in the game engine and isn`t possible to implement.

 

the circle is complete

I could be wrong here but I think it`s in regards to the LW guns posting by RAM,this thread began as a comparison between the .50 caliber and F4U1C cannon,then the LW cannon comparison completes the circle of gripes.

[Hangtime]

Hunh.

Oh well. I guess we are all just whining. We must avoid this; and accept what we have; without comment, historical precedent, statictics or other outside influence and take as gospel the word of the developer on this subject.

"the circle is complete"

Hang
No Sniveling

[Pyro]

I just meant that a lot of issues go in circles.  "And our demands will all be different tomorrow."  



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

Perfect plans, aren't.

[Lugnut]

Pierre brings over a bottle to Lugs table, and presents it for his inspection.

"Chateau HTC Chardonnay, 2000 vintage...Sir."

Lug motions with a wave of his hand and a slight nod and Pierre deftly removes the cork.

Sniff... Sniff....

Fruity, with an obtuse offtopic aroma.

Pierre wraps the white cloth on his arm around the bottle and quickly pours a snootful for the taste test.

as he pours, Pierre offers, "I hear it goes quite well with our Wildebeest tenderloins, with Brussel Sprouts au Grautin"

Hmmm. Tasted just like that pungent ICI Bordeaux 1997 that gave him a nasty hangover.
Lug swished the acrid mixture around in his mouth for a moment before offering it back into the bucket the wine was tendered in with a loud "Pbbbbt"; an elderly matron at the next table glared at Lug with a menacingly raised eyebrow at his tactless display.

"I should well imagine that it might be a fine complement to the Wildebeest. In the meantime Pierre, bring us an oilcan of Fosters and a good medium rare boneless Ribeye and be done with it."

"Very well sir".

"Oh...and Pierre?

"Yes, sir?

Lug pointed his butter knife at the ever patient waiter and said, "Mushrooms, gimme f*ckin pleenntty of mushrooms on top, got it?"

"Very good sir", and he spun on his heel and sped into the kitchen.

   

ex-lug

[This message has been edited by Lugnut (edited 03-30-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lugnut (edited 03-30-2000).]

[Citabria]

 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002450.html


this thread has avi guncam footage of all the weapons being complained about here.

however since no range icons are above the planes i cant tell you what range they are firing at.


hint hint  

range icons suck  

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CitabriAirbatiC

"There Is No Spoon"

[MANDOBLE]

 

Originally posted by RAM:
BTW can anyone post here some data bout MG131? I thought it was roughly equal to american 50 cals.

Some data about guns and machineguns:

Mk 103 (30mm)
ROF: 420 rpm   Muzzle vel: 2580 fps
RW: 330 grams.

Mk 108 (30mm)
ROF: 600 rpm   Muzzle vel: 1515 fps
RW: 312 grams.

Mg151/20 (20mm)
ROF: 750 rpm   Muzzle vel: 2400 fps.
RWeigh: 92 grams

Mg151/15 (15mm)
ROF: 700 rpm   Muzzle vel: 2800 fps.
RW: 57 grams

Mg 131 (13mm)
ROF: 900 rpm   Muzzle vel: 2460 fps.
RW: 34.6 grams

Browning M2 .50 (12.7 mm)
ROF: 750 rpm   Muzzle vel: 2610 fps
RW: 48.5 grams.

Hispano Mk II (20mm)
ROF: 600 rpm   Muzzle vel: 2640 fps
RW: 130 grams.

ShVAK (20 mm)
ROF: 750-800 rpm  Muzzle vel: 2580 fps
RW: 96 grams.

Ho-5 (20 mm)
ROF: 850 rpm  Muzzle vel: 2460 fps
RW: 99 grams.


A side note:
British and americans manufactured hispanos separately. British-made seemed to be reliable, but the USN had frequent complaints about the unreliability of the feed mechanisms in the american-made version (M1 & M2).

[MANDOBLE]

 

Originally posted by RAM:
4-cannon F4U1-C (oops     ) has WAY more punch than a fw190A-8 in snapshots. Well I know Hispanos were better than Mg151s...but German 20mm rounds were HIGHLY damaging, too.

Most of the times hispanos were using normal AP ammo, very late in war they start to use a mixture of HE/I and SAP/I. In the other hand, most of Mg151/20 were using a mixture of HE/I, AP and AP/EI. So, during most part of the war, Mg151/20 was far deadlier than hispanos. Germans had to face bombers while allies only fighers, AP ammo is just enough for fighters but poor against bombers. One or two pings of Mg151/20 AP/EI or HE/I bullets were enough to kill any fighter.
IMO It seems that only AP ammo is modeled in AH.

[Tern]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:
NOTE: This is NOT a post about the -1C, and please don't corrupt the thread.
...My point is that right now the cannons are way too powerful in comparison to machine guns, and its disrupting gameplay...

Two times as powerful, I can understand. Three times as powerful I think is pushing the realistic envelope.

But a single 20mm cannon being 5.2 times as effective as a single .50 cal MG, is definitely out of wack.

I think Verm has spoken far better than I could on this subject.  And... He didn't cuss at all.    
Seriously though, someones bound to argue the ROF thing and to that I say this...
If 4 canons do FOUR to FIVE times the damage of 6 fifties in the same ammount of time... Same one second burst... Then Verm has hit the nail on the head all the way around in his discourse.

I and many others have been sceaming about receiving those "ONE PING KILLS" from canon dweebs.  

Maybe HTC should have Verm look into the data for a "fresh" perspective?  


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Tern
"Live to Fly!  Fly to Fight!  Fight to Live!"

[funked]

Visual Aid posted by Pyro.  Scroll down a ways.  Note relative size of Hispano and MG 151/20 rounds.  Remember that Hispano barrel is way longer than MG 151/20 barrel.  
 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002456.html


[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-31-2000).]

[Pongo]

If I was shooting at tanks I would definatly want the hisp. But what does that gain you vs aircraft? The extra weight of the hisp shell and its bit better velocity are made up for the higher rate of fire and better fuzing on the 151....There was no big distinction between them made during ww2. if they where as different as they are here you would read about it all the time.
Instead the overwhelming flavour you get from reading accounts from the time is parity. The Brits felt they had achieved parity with the germans as regards firepower.
They could never have had that impression with the guns we have here.
The germans captured the factories that made the initial hisp cannons in 1940. and the factories that made their ammo. They would have had to be pretty stupid not to use it on their aircraft, if the disparity was anywhere near what it is here. All those years of development wasted...they had it all the time. The perfect anti bomber, anti tank, anti everything weapon.


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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[Tern]

 

Originally posted by Wraith:
What do modern jets carry today? ONE 20MM or 30MM cannon..only ONE. And they get kills in one burst..

...
[This message has been edited by Wraith (edited 03-27-2000).]

You dope!    F-16's carry a damn gattling cannon, spitting out 3000 rounds a minute at very high velocities.
You seen very many WW2 fighters carry 3000 rounds of 20mm?

Also... The F-16 uses depleted uranium core shells in those 20mm's!

Also... the first damn plane to carry the 20mm gatling was the F-104!

Also... The .50 calibre is much SLOWER than todays cannons.

Also... I am sick of all you idoit cannon dweebs trashing the 50 calibre round.

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Tern
"Live to Fly!  Fly to Fight!  Fight to Live!"