Author Topic: $12000 for a piece of paper...  (Read 649 times)

Offline bloom25

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$12000 for a piece of paper...
« on: June 16, 2002, 10:42:39 PM »
... but it was worth it. :D

Now I can relax for a while and finally play some AH.  There's no use in depressing myself considering the current state of the job market for circuit engineers.

Offline AKDejaVu

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$12000 for a piece of paper...
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2002, 10:44:17 PM »
E-mail me a resume.  Our design team is always hiring.

AKDejaVu

Offline pimpjoe

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« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2002, 10:50:38 PM »
WTG dude!

congrats!:)

Offline bloom25

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« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2002, 11:05:30 PM »
DejaVu, I just might do that.  I'm going on vacation, but after that I'll revamp my resume and send it to you.  (Family reunion in Saskat... [I'm not even going to try], Canada.)  I'd probably be a good match, I actually took the entire semiconductor materials sequence here at OSU, along with the analog circuits and most of the digital circuits sequence.

I'm on a short list of people for Cyprus Semiconductor, but I really don't want to move to Seattle.   Somehow, the thought of living that close to Ripsnort scares me. :D

I'm thinking the extra sales Intel would get from me recommending them instead of AMD would probably pay my salary a few times over... ;)

Offline grizz

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« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2002, 11:09:38 PM »
Congratulations Bloom.  !!   It's nice to see someone succeed in something they enjoy  so much.

:)

Offline Animal

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« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2002, 11:15:01 PM »
Congratulations!!!

If you get hired by Intel, does this mean you will become an Intel fanboy (like Vu) and ditch AMD???

Offline bloom25

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« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2002, 11:22:54 PM »
Of course not, I'll be totally unbiased, just like "Tom's Hardware." :D

If Intel hires me, I'll work to make sure I can recommend their products over AMD.  How does that sound? :)

Offline Animal

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« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2002, 11:27:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bloom25
Of course not, I'll be totally unbiased, just like "Tom's Hardware." :D

If Intel hires me, I'll work to make sure I can recommend their products over AMD.  How does that sound? :)


Sounds cool, a boss would piss himself to hear that.
But of course, after working there for a year, you will be left with a sterile sarcastic Dilbert-esque personality ;)

"hello Bloom, please meet your CEO, Mr.M.T Suit.

Offline bloom25

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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2002, 12:10:32 AM »
To be completely honest one area where Intel is consistantly strong is in manufacturing.  AMD's designs are great, small die size and fast, but compared to Intel their manufacturing abilities are not good.  From what I can gather, AMD's new .13u process yields are poor.  Athlon Throughbred's die layout is superb, significantly better than Palomino, but after more than 6 months they haven't managed more than a measely 66 MHz clockspeed boost (and that's even after they boosted the core voltage a little bit).  AMD currently gets 322 T-bred Athlons off one 200 mm wafer, but I can guarantee you that no more than 50% of those are probably even functional at any of the speeds that they currently sell.  This is after more than 6 months of operation.  That's really, really, REALLY disappointing.  I can only hope AMD has some more success with it's .13u partially depleted channel SOI line, Hammer is impressive from a design standpoint, but unless they can get yields WAY up the sigificantly larger die size, the cost of SOI wafers, and packaging costs (approx 700 and 900 pins for the two Hammer versions) for them are going to make Hammer unprofitable.

When you consider that Intel has already moved to 300 mm (12 " ) diameter wafers, meaning they can get many more processors off the same wafer, and their tremendous yield advantage the prospects for AMD are not good.  Intel keeps their yields very secret, but I'll bet they are over 80%.   Judging by the overclockability of the current batch of Northwoods, I don't think Intel is going to have any trouble getting to 3.4 GHz (the rumored introductary speed rating for Hammer when it is supposed to be launched in early October) if they choose to do so.  AMD is going to have to double the clock speed of their current batch of Hammers which are sampling to around 1.6 - 2.0 GHz to achieve that rating.

From a job perspective, I'd choose a profitable company over a company struggling to break even anyday.  (Not to mention I only live 2 hours away from the Portland OR area, but I'm a long way away from Sunnyville CA or Austin TX.)  One of our professors here at OSU (who I speak with regularly) used to work at Intel and holds 5 or 6 patents from that time.  I know quite a bit about what to expect as far as procedures and management.  Intel pushes their engineers very hard, but it's a very exciting place to be and few companys offer the career advancement opportunites that Intel does.  Senior engineers end up overseeing the work of the other engineers and assigning tasks, so basically your boss is another engineer.  (Hmm, I'll have to put him on my references list. :D )

Offline lord dolf vader

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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2002, 12:29:05 AM »
amd is public about the yields from their chip production plants ?  

didnt know that .

Offline Gman

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« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2002, 12:41:43 AM »
Hey Bloom, congrats.

Where is your family reunion?  Mine is in Saskat-er, wherever as well at the same time.

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2002, 12:47:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lord dolf vader
amd is public about the yields from their chip production plants ?  

didnt know that .
No.. neither is Intel.  But they aren't particularly secretive about it either.  Both publish the information amongst their workforce which in effect makes it public information.

AKDejaVu
« Last Edit: June 17, 2002, 12:50:00 AM by AKDejaVu »

Offline bloom25

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« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2002, 01:38:01 AM »
It's not generally made public as to the percentage of processors off a wafer which are functional.  Both AMD and Intel release information on the number of processors/wafer, as well as occasionally releasing information on manufacturing costs, but as to the actual number of processors which are functional/wafer, that is not public.   Some companies like TSMC, which manufactures chips for other companies, have information on process parameters and yields available to designers.  AMD is actually keeping information on their yields very quiet right now.  My "no more than 50%" figure above is based on talking with one of the professors here at OSU , who keeps very close tabs on semiconductor manufacturing technologies, and what he thought might be going on.  AMD's former CEO was recently quoted denying low yields, but there's quite a buzz about it which seem to confirm that they are not good right now.  To AMD's credit, they may be better now, but at least the first batch of Throughbred Athlons which are available now obviously were having some problems with exceeding 1800 MHz (2200+ speed rating).  In general, the practical maximum speed at which a transistor can switch increases fairly linearly with a decrease in its dimensions.  That's because by far the biggest problem right now in increasing clock speeds is the wires themselves which connect the transistors together.

Technical description (in other words I hope this helps you :D ):

The rate at which the voltage can change on a "wire" is going to be related to the supply voltage, capacitance, and resistance as: V(t)=Vinitial*(1 - exp(-t/RC)) or Vinitial*exp(-t/RC), depending on whether you are trying to pull it up (logic '1') or down (logic '0') respectively.  The delays caused by the transistors themselves has become less important than the interconnect delay in the past several years.  Capacitance (C) is: Koxide*Eo*Area/thickness of oxide, where Koxide is the dielectric constant of the insulating material used, which for SiO2 (which is the most common) is 3.9.  Eo is the permitivity (sp) constant of free-space and is 8.85x10^-14 Farads/cm^2.  Area is just the area of the wire, and the thickness is self explanatory.  Resistance is related to the resistivity of the material used for the wires themselves, which for modern processes is going to be copper (and for some parts tungsten and some titanium or gold alloys), multiplied by the length/width of the wire.

When you move to .13u vs .18u, for example, if you just shrink everything, but leave the actual layout itself the same, the capacitance and resistance shrinks in a fairly linear fashion.  This *should* allow a fairly linear increase in maximum clockspeeds.  (I'm neglecting some fairly important issues, mostly related to quantum effects (i.e. tunneling) to keep this simple.)  Another benefit is in power consumption.  Power goes as P=1/2*clock speed*core voltage^2*capacitance.  Since capacitance is decreased, so does power consumption.  The problem is that since the die got smaller you have less contact area for a heatsink.  The best way to reduce power consumption is to reduce voltage, but that comes at a price in maximum clockspeed (see above, remember V*exp(-t/RC)).

If you look at the layout photos of the Throughbred vs the Palomino core Athlon XPs (I've seen them at Tom's Hardware and Anandtech) you can see that for the most part everything just got smaller.  The only real change is that the L2 cache was moved, but it's actually in a better location now.  The fact that AMD hasn't been able to increase clockspeeds indicates that something else is at fault.  Manufacturing (or a serious fault in the new layout) is going to be at fault here.

In AMD's case, note that they've only managed to reduce core voltage by only .05 to .1 Volts to maintain the same clockspeed.  This is bad news, as it means power consumption is only going to be a little bit lower, and the real problem is that since Throughbred has a smaller die than Palomino you have less surface area to remove that heat.  Once again, this relates back to manufacturing.

My educated opinion is that heat is actually limiting Throughbred right now, and that manufacturing issues are preventing the core voltage from being reduced, thus limiting the maximum clockspeed once again...  (It's a never ending loop. :) )  Heat REALLY hurts how quickly transistors can switch.  Heat disipation figures at Tom's Hardware confirm that the XP 2200+ draws only a couple watts less power than the XP 2100+.  The smaller die size means that actual heat/die area is going to be much higher.  Some people have actually managed to take an XP 2200+ to over 2500 MHz using water cooling, confirming what I've just said.  Undoubtedly AMD will be able to get the clockspeeds up with a little bit of time and work in manufacturing T-bred, but what T-bred really needed was a heat-spreading metal plate like the P4 has.  (Hammer does as well.)

Well I hope some of you were able to get something out of that at least... :D

Offline Kanth

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« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2002, 01:50:39 AM »
Dood, your middle name is Gargle?


Congrats on your Degree WTG!!!


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Offline bloom25

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« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2002, 01:52:53 AM »
Was 80% pretty close DejaVu?  :D  (It might actually be higher, I was trying to be conservative based on what I've heard a couple months ago.)

I've got a question for you as well - Does Intel use phase shifting masks for .13u?  I remember you mentioning that you're moving from 248nm to 193nm (ArF excimer laser ? ), so I thought you might know that as well.  I've heard that masks for .13u are REALLY expensive, so I was wondering what was so special about them...

Edit:  LOL, my middle name is "Daryle", which is my dad's first name.  That font they use makes it hard to read.  It's bad enough my last name is Bloom, if my middle name was gargyle, garyle, or something like that, it'd be even worse. :D

Reunion is on the 28th in a VERY small town called Rockglen, about 90 miles north of Glasgow MT.  If your reunion is there, we are probably related.  :eek:

« Last Edit: June 17, 2002, 02:01:45 AM by bloom25 »