Does the F8F have a place here?

[illo]

Originally posted by K West
Neither did the C-47 we have

Westy

Make it Li-2.

[Sikboy]

 
So again why do you such a problem with the F8F being based on the FW190 concept?

Because we don't understand what it was about the engine placement in the FW190 that is reflected in the F8F, which as far as many of us can tell, was a logical evolution of the F6F, with a more powerfull engine. If you can tell me this, it would be easier to understand, but until such time, the "problem" I have, is that there is no reason for the USN (or in this case Grumman, to copy the FW190, when they have a different mission and requirements. EG, CV TO/Landing, No need for cannons (thanks to Japanese paper airplanes ect). If  you want to make a case for an allied plane being "inspired" by the 190, perhaps the corsair would be better. A plane that when introduced didn't make the grade  for CV use, and shares many of the same flight charactoristics as the 190 (such as poor low speed turning, and major torque [edit ] and monster roll rate [/edit]

 I mean the chief designer of Grumman and its chief test pilot (both Bob Hall, of prewar racing fame) went to England, test flew FW190, said its diddlying awesome then built a plane with nearly identical proportions, weight, size

Wow, did Kurt Tank invent post hoc reasoning as well?

-Sikboy

[whgates3]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
EVERYONE copied German swept wing research. Most notable successes were Boeing B47 and North American F86. Both were originally straight wing with much less performance.

the XP-79 was designed, at the very latest, January 1943.  
It had swept wings.  
The Schwalbe wasn't seen by the allies until July 1944.

[GRUNHERZ]

My whole point is F8F is not the logical evolution of F6F Navy plane. US navy was wanting bigger and heavier fighters, not light ones. Look at what grumman competitors were putting up at the time. They were often 12,000lbs and bigger.  Some were positively monsterous with r3350 and 4330 (the two big PW engines if numbers arent exact)  series engines. Not R2800 in a FW190 sized plane.   Hall said exactly "If we put an R2800 in this thing (FW190) we'd have a world beater".  And thats what a bearcat is. Bearcat is even smaller than F4F, bearcat is just about identical in size and weight to FW190.  

So what if XP79 had a swept leading edge? Being and North American both freeley admit they flat out copied german swept wing technology.

Maybe arrogant americans invented this idea that they never copy other peoples ideas?

Frankly Im getting tired of this arguing over F8F, why should I try taling to people who are just so afraid of this idea they have to make fun of a planes designer for people suggesting one plane was based on his. I find that really childish and stupid.  



Oh btw Americans were put on the moon by german rocket scientists. There stew over that you bunch of asses.

[NOD2000]

Bah screw that u fighter jocks.................... BRING THE B-32 DOMINATOR TO ACES HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ten .50's in nose 2 20 mm in tail 2 20mm on top and 2 20 mm in ball turrent........could carry 22,000lbs of bombs......... now thats a bomber............

[HoHun]

Hi whgates3,

>the XP-79 was designed, at the very latest, January 1943.  
It had swept wings.  

The XP-79 was a flying wing which had a slight sweep back for stability reasons (as customary for flying wings). It was neither fit to nor designed to exploit the advantages of a swept wing in high speed flight which had been pointed out by Busemann in the 1930s.

The XP-79 spun in from10000 ft on its maiden flight (September 1945) when the test pilot tried to fly the first turn. An earlier unpowered prototype had been destroyed after getting into an unrecoverable spin, too.

The Northrop XP-79 was a tragic failure, and it certainly did not inspire the US aircraft industry to copy its concepts.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[-ammo-]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ

Maybe arrogant americans invented this idea that they never copy other peoples ideas?

I am not arrogant, and frankly what I look for is the truth, unskewed.  Claims as such the the F8F was designed based on the Focke Wulfe would be OK by me if there was something  more than heresay to go on.  I have seen folks in here say they have seen the dicumentation in a magazine, (or whatever) but I have NEVER seen anything substantial on this matter.  I guess thats the real crux of it.

[fdiron]

don't know other things, but the bearcat also copied that installation. I don't know where is the problem in admitting it, damnit...the 190 was a damned fine plane with many superb features. One would have to be VERY stupid not to copy (when possible) the good features used by the enemy in their own planes!.

In what ways did it copy the installation?  The U.S. had many radial engine aircraft.

[HoHun]

Hi Ammo,

>I have seen folks in here say they have seen the dicumentation in a magazine, (or whatever) but I have NEVER seen anything substantial on this matter.  I guess thats the real crux of it.

In a Flight Journal Special ("WW II Fighters", Winter 2000), Grumman test pilot Corky Meyer states with regard to the 1944 Fighter Conference:

"A Focke Wulf-190 was supposed to have been present, but it was held up at Wright Field for maintenance. I regrettet that because both Bob Hall and Bud Gillies had flown it in England in 1943, and the XF8F-1 Bearcat was a direct outgrwoth of their flights. They were greatly impressed by this German fighter."

Barrett Tillman in the same issue comments a bit less substantally on the subject:

"Inevitably, some 190s fell into Allied hands, and thereby lies a tale. In 1943, Grumman test pilot flew a 'short-nose' Fw 190A in England. Tremendously impressed, they returned to Long Island and related the tale to Leroy Grumman, saying 'Boss, if we put an R-2800 on that airframe, we'll have a world beater.'"

However, though the F8F might have been inspired by the Fw 190, I doubt it could be called a copy. Here are what I consider distinguishing features of the Fw 190:

- Forced air-cooling by an engine-driven radiator fan
- Sophistiated internal streamlining of the engine compartment, including internal air intakes
- single-piece inner wing of full monocoque construction (with the gear retracting in front of the main spar) with the outer wings attached as individual pieces
- inner wing built around a massive main spar that does not continue into outer wings
- entire tail unit is not a part of the main fuselage
- electrically synchronized wing root cannon
- streamlined bubble canopy (impressed everyone to no end in 1943 :-)

I don't have any documents on the Bearcat with enough depth to check these points, but I'm sure someone else will have a more complete bookshelf in that regard and help us out :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[-ammo-]

HoHun--

TYVM. That is good stuff.  While not "proof" or anything, it would lead someone to believe that the Focke Wolf was direct influence on the design of the F8F. I would love to see official design documents regarding this. Maybe they exist somewhere.

THx

[K West]

"Oh btw Americans were put on the moon by german rocket scientists. There stew over that you bunch of tulips "

 I'm not nationalisticly rabid, so you won't find me stewing over anything of the sort

 And I'll stand by my opinion that the F8F is not a progression of the the FW-190.  I just see several people who read into things far too much who use a lot of imaginative conjecture, far fetched logic to propose otherwise - all based on 50 year old comments regarding a captured enemy plane.

 I give it six months before someone claims that the P-51 was a direct decendant of the MC202 based on the Macci having an inline engine and a bottom fuselage cooler. And how an engineer at North American whistled in appreciation for the sexy lines of the 202. And that's how the P-51 became a copy of the 202.

  Westy

[Hristo]

I saw 2 photos of bearcat in my life .

Does it look like 190 ? Does your neighbor look like Churchill ? All subjective

To me it does, because i like 190s...

Seriously, we are influenced by the things we experienced. Even if we don't like it. Even if we don't know it. If designers of Bearcat ever flew the 190, Bearcat is influenced by it.

The only way a Bearcat was not influenced by 190 would be to grow its designers on another planet, denying them any knowledge whatsoever of the 190 existance. And even then there could be a coincidence.

Is F-16 influenced by Fokker Dr.I ? Depends on what you consider influence.

[K West]

I just happen to happened to have a nice picture to help.
See my other topic (about a 180k jpeg)

  Westy

[Red Tail 444]

Looking at the pic again, it still reminds me more of an F6 moreso than a 190...Maybe the paint scheme does it, I don't know. It could resemble an A8, but not nearly sleek enough to invoke images of the Dora IMO...

Sorry Westy, but to me, it looks like a member of the Grumman Family..
Gainsie

[K West]

"Sorry Westy, but to me, it looks like a member of the Grumman Family.."

And that is what I am saying. I do NOT think the F8F and the FW190 are related at all.

Westy