Reverse Question

[Fester']

First, My handle is FesCAF in AH so Im not Citabria.  Just want to clarify that cause this is kind of a dweeby question.

Ive been flying for quite awhile but I had a question on something I see but cannot duplicate.

I was flying the other day and bounced a low P-47.  I was very confident coming in on what i considered an easy target.

As I dropped on his 6 I chopped throttle and cross controlled as I knew he would scissor.  I still had more speed as I closed within 1k.  At d800 he broke right in a quick flat turn.

No biggie I thought, hes hoping Im way hot and hes going to try to scissor and Ill just saddle up on him and blow him away.  Maybe Ill try to just shoot his left wing off...

Im saying here we are pretty much co -e

I followed the move with a lot of lag anticipating the cut back left.

I was not dissapointed as I saw him break left.  I followed hard.  as he crossed in front of me at about d650 he went into a sweeping left hand oblique climb.  Like the start of a barrel roll coming back to the right.  

I followed pointing my nose up at him and ticking off the distance waiting to pull lead as he did a lazy roll to the right and over the top.

Well, at the apex of the move he reversed and came HO so quick I was literally paralyzed with amazment.  It looked like the plane just swapped ends at the top of the move and came screaming back down.

I tried to reverse and follow, but mine was extremely lame and wollowing by comparison and he gained a ton of angles with that one move and really leveled the playing field.  Then he "rolling scissored" the crap out of me and shot me down.

So my question is how the hell do you reverse a plane that damn quick?  I know it wasnt lag, or me misreading something he was right in front of me and just mastered getting that plane around better than me.  Jug pilot was sancho

It always seems when I try this (and I try a lot) that I am a wallowing pig and no matter what I do a reverse in the vertical is painfully slow manuever.  For that matter if I am fighting a really good stick it always appears as though I have about 2k of ordinance strapped under my ship and they are on fumes.  I have seriously checked in some of these fights to see if I had mistakenly brought ordinance along

If I push the plane harder I stall, rudder (like a hammerhead) doesnt make things a lot faster...  Am I starting the manuever too slow?

I see this particular move or versions of it when flying against really good pilots.  Grunherz did an excellent version of this exact same move to me the other day and I went very quickly from a state of pure greed to "man this is gonna suck"

At anyrate, is this a retained E issue Or am I not coordinating my controls correctly or what?

Any input here is greatly appreciated

[Bluedog]

Originally posted by Fester

............  Jug pilot was sancho................

Therein lies 99% of your problem, I've tangled with Sancho's Jug once or twice myself, and believe me, that is one fight you wont forget in a hurry. As far as Jug Drivers go, he is known to be one of the best in the trade

A question....what aircraft were you flying? not that it makes much differance with regards to your question, i am just curious to get a better mental picture of the fight you describe.

What you described, sounds to me like pretty much a Hammerhead, using an aggressively induced stall to 'pivot' and come back down, rather than waiting for the stall to happen due to low airspeed.

I have allmost no experience in a Jug, but I do know that it is damn heavy, and it rolls fast, it allso has a nasty snap-stall, resulting in a wickedly quick left hand roll if you are too heavy handed with it.....if you can get it to do that stall-one-wing-and-snap-stall-to-the-left thing at, or near,the top of a zoom, then know what you're on about enough to catch the stall as soon as you are pointed downwards again, the weight and power of the Jug in a 0 G dive will quickly build up enough speed so you can manouver again freely, allowing you to allign those 8 Fifties for the split second they need to get the kill, at what by now is a relatively short range.

Dunno if any of that makes sense or not, but it sounds to me like a guy who knows how to get every last skerrick of goodness outta his plane, executing a very aggressive Hammerhead, or Rope-A-Dope type manouver.....it just happened a few seconds and maybe 100mph earlier than you were expecting.

Just wait till you run into him when Frenchy is with him, then it gets REALLY interesting.

Blue

P>S>  What colour was this Jug? Green or Silver........the Green one, the -D-11 is a supprisingly agile machine.
If he was low , it was probably after a fight or two previously, he may have been  fairly light on the fuel side of things too.
A P47-D-11 with less than say 30% fuel, with all that power, and that big bank of firepower out front is a very capable machine......with someone like Sancho driving, it's lethal.

[Ghosth]

Agree with Bluedog, Sancho & the other 56th pilots can do things with that jug that seem impossible.

Nice guys too!  

[Apar]

Been dancing with Sancho last Sunday in MA (while I was in 109G2) in 1v1's. It was very intense and good fights. We tied on the total of 4 engagements.

He IS a very good P47 pilot (if not the best). He was flying the P47-25. It is very good in stall turns, especially with flaps out (my guess he had 50% flaps out) and using enough rudder to stall turn it in a high angle climb.

The problem lies in trying to prevent overshooting, while he's turning his plane at stall speeds. His turn radius is very small, you need to match it if you want to dance with him, or choose a different way to fight him (E-fight).

P.S. he did something I have not ever seen before in the MA.
Was on my fourth 1v1 encounter with him, we danced he had to break at a certain point and extended, I followed him and came across a niki with alt advantage (2k). I had to break from sancho and fight the niki. If sancho would have reversed he could have finished me off easiliy in a 2v1 (niki+p47 vs 109). But he didn't, he extended to about 3-4k, and waited for me to finish the niki, than he reversed and we resumed the fight (I lost that one from him)

Although one should not expect that kind of behaviour in the MA, I thought it was a really cool and nice thing to do, BIG for that Sancho!!!

[Fester']

Thanks for the info guys  

I think one of the big problems I am having is trying to fly like I did in AW.  YOu could stay in the vertical and retain so much E,  trying to fly like that here blows way too much e.  I think, (killer reversal moves not included) that much of my problem involves getting too damn slow.

Im going to fart around in the jug some to see if there is something to that induced stall.  Very cool that THAT particular plane can be handled so well as to trun the tables when at a significant disadvantage.

Thank you again for the assistance.

[Sikboy]

I demand that someone accuse someone else of Cheating

-Sikboy

PS: very cool thread. Good to know.

[Kronos]

Ammo, Sancho, Frenchy, Nomde, Vector, (although he doesn't fly much right now), Lephturn and Drex are prolly the best P47 pilots out there.

Notice 5 of the 7 are 56th FG

Now if only the other two would join us

I can handle my own in the P47, but these guys really make the plane shine.  (maybe its all the waxing the rest of us do to these guys planes............)

[humble]

The JUG is a pure brick....till you see sancho, frenchy,drex etc fly it...then it becomes a rembrandt. When you lose a fight like that against a jug you lost to the pilot not the plane. That being said the jug will dance nicely...in the right hands. You just don't get to see it often enough to really gage the planes ability. There for I can logically conclude all jug aces have an unfair advantage...so they are cheating.

I think we should make the 56th skins a nice bright pink so we all know if we're facing a REAL jug driver or one of these cheaters. After all if I can't do it...you shouldnt be able to either.


Damm, sure glad I'm not flying right now:)

Fester (#2)...actually you just ran into one of the true aces in the game...I hate that damm move also (PERK the JUG....driver)

[Fester']

What's amazing to me is that I can be fling in what I consider to be a superior plane as far as manueverablity is concerned.  Or at least what I perceive to be a better plane, and they can dance so well that it makes me feel like Ive got ordinance strapped on.  (Im serious here)

So I went and flew last night and really paid attention to it, and kick bellybutton trick moves aside, I think I am just really managing my speed in a poor fashion.

I dont think I ever look at the speed of the aircraft.  Last night in the TA I started paying attention to how fast I was going when entering manuevers and what not.  Much of the time I was at or under 200mph.  I think I am just plain allowing myself to get too slow.

Something in the sancho fight that I really clued into was that as I came in with a good 5-7k alt advantage he disengaged and tho he was low he made sure he had speed built up, then he hung onto it for all he was worth.

Im curious, does anyone have any input on speed management in a jug.  Dont go below xxx speed or something to that effect.  Actually, films would be really great that way I could see how they are managing speed through manuevers.  If I see it I can duplicate it.

Thanks again for the help

[Kronos]

Originally posted by humble :

I think we should make the 56th skins a nice bright pink so we all know if we're facing a REAL jug driver or one of these cheaters.

One clue to find out whether your facing a 56th FG Jug or not is :

Look for a second JUG. Then a third, fourth, etc.
If more than one of us is on, we're bound to be together .

FesCAF,

Basic flying of the jug is this.  Try to maintain alt advantage over your opponent, try to keep the fight at high alt if possible gives your supercharger an advantage over most planes (25-15K), and try not to let your speed drop below 250.

Have patience, don't try to turn with the other cons, cause that will just get you killed.  If you get into a real tight situation, just power dive to safety.  (full throttle dive, I've even used wep in the dive just to make sure I got that much farther away.)

[Nomde]

On flying the jug, it depends on the situation, I will say this tho...
The jug can stand on it's tail falling backward and you'll still have control when flap & rudder movements are performed properly. The engine is heavy enough to throw the nose around for a quick hammerhead and gain initial speed. Heavy rudder and flap control is key and knowing your E state is criticle.
I like the d30 best due to the extra HP and odinance availible for jabo missions, but the d11 is a sweet turning machine that will get ya home too. d25? that brazilian POS won't be seen in my hanger unless sancho, ammo, an frenchy drag me screaming & kickin.

Alt + wingie = life

[bozon]

about speed managment in the jug:

I am very far away from those 56th dudes level with the jug, but I do like to fly them (together with the f6f).
one of the things the jug is really good at is loosing speed. while not a pleasant feature in most cases, it can be used in a desperate situations to your advantage. If some bandits with superior E tries to suddle-in on you, and you were wise enough to start with enough speed, you can loose this speed faster then any plane, causing an overshoot. using sharp scissor with a lot of rudder and a notch of flaps will bring the jug from ~300mph to ~200mph with a blink of an eye. if those La7, yak, spit9, 109, (fast E building planes) don't react VERY fast they will over shoot right into your 8*0.5.
and if they pull high, you pull out another notch of flaps, stand on your tail and spary 'em.

this is a one way ticket with a plane that can't accelerate or climb well, but saved my bellybutton a lot of times. and p-47 still get me with that one when I'm fighting them.

to Drex, Frenchy and Sancho. I learned a lot from films you posted.

Bozon

[Manxer]

I think if you film the fights fester, that you can then go into the viewer and put yourself in their plane. Just a thought.

[Red Tail 444]

Originally posted by Nomde
On flying the jug, it depends on the situation, I will say this tho...
The jug can stand on it's tail falling backward and you'll still have control when flap & rudder movements are performed properly. The engine is heavy enough to throw the nose around for a quick hammerhead and gain initial speed. Heavy rudder and flap control is key and knowing your E state is criticle.
 

Nomde, care to give a detailed description? I usually fly the hog, so I'm pretty good at keeping an eye on speed, but I'mlooking for another ride that takes practice and skill to learn. (won't see me in a spit or la7 anytime soon!)

Jug is a fun plane, but I'm terrible in it..I'm all ears or willing to go TA if you see me up. In the meantime, a posting here would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

Gainsie