Author Topic: true FW190 rollrate  (Read 3784 times)

Offline Daff

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true FW190 rollrate
« Reply #120 on: June 25, 2002, 04:51:06 PM »
"AH 190A can barely use its roll rate advantage to outscissor a spitIX, the spit will roll the same aided by rudder "

Well, d'oh!..Why don't you just use rudder as well?.

Daff

Offline moot

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« Reply #121 on: June 25, 2002, 04:59:46 PM »
SWulfe,

Mandoble//the momentary subject of your grudge != LW's voice and representant.

If what Hitech says is true, there is every reason to post feedback information on the game for possible correction (or at least consideration of this info fo it) to better match what is supposed to be in the game; according to Hitech's post, matching the game's models with their RL objects is the goal, although the calling 'simulation' would cut the grass under this last assumption's feet.
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Offline moot

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« Reply #122 on: June 25, 2002, 05:07:30 PM »
Daff,

That (is true but) secondary to the FM being correct in the first place.
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Offline RRAM

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« Reply #123 on: June 25, 2002, 05:13:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Daff


Well, d'oh!..Why don't you just use rudder as well?.

Daff



causes severe E-bleed and , in the case of the Fw190, it barely enhances the roll of the plane anyway.

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #124 on: June 25, 2002, 05:19:00 PM »
No doubt about it Moot, if these roll rates/top speeds/etc are indeed correct.. then I believe the in-game models should be adjusted should the information be enough to prove to HTC that there is something amiss in the current modelling of the plane.

I questioned the roll rate based on stick force simply because it was left out (and I did not know what it was on the 190s), I got my answer and I was satisfied.

But then people started throwing in their asinine drivel about LW being too good, that's why the LW planes are 'neutered', or HTC not responding "again"(although they sure don't respond to all that many threads to begin with), and other such nonsense(allied conspiracies, etc)...

It's been 2+ years now, and they still can't get it past their ego that maybe HTC isn't trying to keep the LW down, or that they aren't trying to not give LW planes the performance they deserve... whatever it is... they just can't accept that despite a few degrees off in the 190s roll, or 16MPH on one planes top speed at sea level, they aren't the center of HTC's world and LW planes are less than 1/4 of the countries that participated in WWII (and thus in this game). It takes a whole toejamload of a lot of time and work to go back and fix things- especially when you are attempting to emulate flight on a freaking 1Ghz computer.

It ain't just Mandoble either. He just happens to be the one replying to me in this particular thread. Not ALL virtualLW pilots are like that- I spend the majority of my time in 190s... if they get better performance, great, but I don't want it arrived at by these BS tactics of trying to sucker HTC in with blatantly false claims about intentionally dumbing down LW planes for gameplay or whatever.

Stick to the data, with valid claims and I won't even get into a pissing match with these fellas.
-SW

Offline moot

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« Reply #125 on: June 25, 2002, 05:31:32 PM »
edited for grammar
SWulfe,

Understood, I agree with you but am not in your position, nor in the generic LWhiner's, so the main purpose is still to provide for improvements to anything, for example this case in question.
If one has undirectly-related problems to bring up alongisde, inherently it is only partially relevent to the main purpose.

The protocol is another question, yes.


If I turn off diplomacy-mode, Ill say that I doubt HTC is about to be suckered by anyone into BSing their (HTC's) final product.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2002, 05:35:18 PM by moot »
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Offline RRAM

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« Reply #126 on: June 25, 2002, 05:41:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKSWulfe
It's been 2+ years now, and they still can't get it past their ego that maybe HTC isn't trying to keep the LW down, or that they aren't trying to not give LW planes the performance they deserve... whatever it is... they just can't accept that despite a few degrees off in the 190s roll, or 16MPH on one planes top speed at sea level, they aren't the center of HTC's world and LW planes are less than 1/4 of the countries that participated in WWII (and thus in this game). It takes a whole toejamload of a lot of time and work to go back and fix things- especially when you are attempting to emulate flight on a freaking 1Ghz computer.

 




You could say it in a less agressive way, but in this I have to agree with you ,SW. It takes time. It takes work,too. And they got their heads and work focused in other areas of the game.


However one thing is true, here, Seawulfe. And I want you to read this in a pure objective way, I don't want to flame anything. I just try to be objective.

Pyro ,or HT, or anyone at HTC could chime in this thread, or the 190 speed thread (which has been one of the most civil discussions I recall in this forum regarding a german plane), and just say "We will look into it,when we've got time in the future"...or "we think our sources are more trustable, and AH's 190A5 speed will stay that way"...or "nice info but we need more data"...

I mean...to say "yes" , "no"...or "not enough data"...doesn't take that much time. I mean, hey even HT entering one of his code-answers (0 or 1 ,heheh :D) would be enough to know if HTC thinks the data presented is valid and worth discussing.


You would say that HTC guys have more things to do than to answer into the boards. I agree. But this topics have been around for quite some time now, and to post a short answer is not asking for much, I think. They haven't done it so far. No problem from my side, but is clear some people do have that problem :(.


I don't know, SW, the thing is that HTC has kept silence on the matter...that is a fact. The reasons of that silence I don't truly understand but is their priviledge and option to answer the questions and topics brought up in this forum, or not.

I only say that it would be better (IMHO) if we had some kind of...er..."official standpoint" made by ,say, pyro, on the matters we've discussed :). That would finish many debates wich have been discussed for literally, ages, in the forums ,and would clear many people's doubts :).

 For instance... HoHun and Naudet are still disagreeing about the true power output of AH's 190D9...I won't think is that difficult for Pyro to enter one of those trheads and clear up which the true output is in AH,and so end the months-long debate for once at all :).


See, I don't think HTC has an anti-LW agenda. As I said in a previous post I do think the 190A5's speed is in the fixlist for Pyro and that will be fixed in the future.

In contrast, I don't think the rollrate is in that list....and rightly so because -even when I think is too low in AH- the true roll rate at 50lbs stick force is not well documented and thus the only chart we have is the NACA one. Wrong or not, is the only official chart with enough information to do a model, so is the one used.


I just say, that it won't be hard for Pyro or HT to enter the A5's discussion and write "1" and then enter into this one and write "0" :D. That would end many debates about their point of view, don't you think? :).


P.S. Ok, I know there would be endless debate about the why of a "yes", or why of a "no"...but at least noone will say that HTC has kept a silence on the matter anymore :)

Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #127 on: June 26, 2002, 06:01:59 AM »
I've Mentioned it before Ram, but you were on AH Vactaion I think.

It is my belief that HTC doesn't respond to these types of threads because of the distinct posibility that they will simply end up arguing with thier customers. Maybe you don't think that you would do such a thing, and maybe you are right. But there are people on this board who wouldn't think twice of questioning HTCs ethics or integrity. It's an invitation for people to "go for the jugular" to get their model changed, and I think its just an unappealing situation.

Over the last few months, people have brought data that shows that the F6F5, the F4U1D,  and the 190A5 are all too slow. If HTC feels that the data warrents examination or change, they will make it. But there isn't much that can be done.


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Offline Daff

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« Reply #128 on: June 26, 2002, 06:59:30 AM »
"causes severe E-bleed and , in the case of the Fw190, it barely enhances the roll of the plane anyway."

Which, in a scissors situation, isnt necesarrily a bad thing...that is, if you are trying to force an overshoot and not just roll around to avoid being hit.

Daff

Offline straffo

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« Reply #129 on: June 26, 2002, 07:14:25 AM »
A message to all who think that 190 roll rate is porked :

fly Typhoon only for one week ...

I bet that after this experiment the 190 roll rate will make you sick :D :D (*)




(*) don't forget your vomit bag ;)

Offline RRAM

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« Reply #130 on: June 26, 2002, 02:22:34 PM »
Yep ,Sikboy, and I understand your point. I'm at a point where I don't really mind if they answer or not because I do know all data posted here is looked at, and taken in account by HTC if it is reliable enough. But still I think that some posting won't hurt too much, just an in&out thing to make people know about what HTC thinks on a given issue.

I don't know :). All I know is that I would like them to post a bit more, but that I can live without it :)


Quote
Originally posted by Daff

Which, in a scissors situation, isnt necesarrily a bad thing...that is, if you are trying to force an overshoot and not just roll around to avoid being hit.

Daff



Hehehe, yes, Daff...but the thing is that I want to bleed E when I want to bleed E, and I want to stay fast and keep E when I want to keep that E ;).

and anyway rudder in 190 doesn't accelerate your roll rate. I know it first hand, is my most used ride :)

Offline Angus

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« Reply #131 on: June 27, 2002, 06:18:12 AM »
Just found a nice picture of the 190 stick.
Here  you go ;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Hristo

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« Reply #132 on: June 27, 2002, 06:37:04 AM »
any more where that came from ?

very interested

Offline Angus

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« Reply #133 on: June 27, 2002, 11:13:17 AM »
More stick pictures? here you go:)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #134 on: June 27, 2002, 11:14:23 AM »
What are all those buttons on the stick for? I see a pinky button, a button on the front, and two buttons on the top... anyone know?
-SW