Author Topic: P-38L vs. bf109 (Read 841 times)

akak · « **on:** June 23, 2002, 02:58:14 PM »

Here's a film of me fighting a Bf109 in a P-38L. It's a damn good fight and probably ranks amongst one of the best 1v1 fights I've had in the 6 months I've played AH.

P-38L vs. bf109

Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders

Apar · « **Reply #1 on:** June 23, 2002, 07:48:57 PM »

Nice fight. And amazing how the P38 can hang on prop (+flaps) at 80mph and still be a stable gun platform,

Tac · « **Reply #2 on:** June 23, 2002, 07:56:30 PM »

ride a n1k on prop at 20 mph while firing. be even more amazed

nice film too!

Kaz · « **Reply #3 on:** June 23, 2002, 09:10:39 PM »

i knew tac would mention the n1k

but guess what? HT doesn't have any plans on changing it anytime soon prolly won't change 'til we get another n1k ver. or another uber plane for newbies and only HT knows when that's gonna happen.... could be years away

akak · « **Reply #4 on:** June 23, 2002, 10:34:45 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kaz
i knew tac would mention the n1k but guess what? HT doesn't have any plans on changing it anytime soon prolly won't change 'til we get another n1k ver. or another uber plane for newbies and only HT knows when that's gonna happen.... could be years away

Niki isn't all that scary, in fact it is one of the easiest planes to shoot down. Niki strengths are its decent turn rate and 4x 20mm cannons. I know Tac and I disagree on this but I think that roping Nikis is the most effective way of shooting one down. In my opinion, the P-38L is just more effective in the vertical and can easily counter the so-called "uber" vertical ability of the Niki.

Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders

Tac · « **Reply #5 on:** June 24, 2002, 12:55:33 AM »

I would only agree to that akak if the 38 had massive E advantage... as in n1k is 250mph and 38 is near compression. It WILL hang on prop and stay there until you flip over in stall and whack you with d900 spray while in full control at 20 mp'ish...with WEP on too

Ironically, the only way I find to actually ROPE the damn n1k is to LET it get close (but not at a fast close rate, maybe weaving left and right with shallow flat sciscors till it get to within d1.3).. then POWERDIVE to near compression and pull hard up on a hammerhead. If you time it right the n1k will be at d1.5 or d1.7 when you pull up, and if he follows you on the zoom he starts with lower E and with separation disadv.. thats when you can actually rope it. With a P-38 you can do a nifty trick to "flip around" instantly and not give the n1k a big, fat view of your dorsal planform... pull the 38s nose up till speed is actually 10 or 0 mph (with full flaps out btw), cut 1 engine throttle out, rudder hard to that engine's side.. the 38 will flip sideways superfast.. cut both engine's power halfway through the flip but keep the rudder pressed.. when nose down let go rudder and pull nose DOWN (no matter if nose IS pointing 90 degree down, your flaps will make it nose up and enter a flat spin, so KEEP pressure on nose down at this point). retract flaps while your powerless 38 falls earthwards.. and you can give the engines juice when you 100mph or more, giving them full power before that can stall you (well, my dual throttle is laggy in 1 engine so putting full on both makes 1 engine power faster and it enters me in spin, if you dont have this problem, juice em up at your convenience!)

Sounds complicated but you'll get to do it in a snap after a few tries.

Sadly, kaz is right. I dont even know if hes going to change it.. or fix the 38 dive flap and retracting flap issue.. OR if he even plans to add the auto-butterfly flaps to the n1k (last I heard they werent). Heck, im not new to waiting.. dozens of tours and still no green 38 heeheee *hint* *nudge*

*KICK*

-runs away-

Apar · « **Reply #6 on:** June 24, 2002, 07:42:50 AM »

I don't care weither they change the n1k2 or not, for me it is a total BS FM but I made my peace with that fact. I don't fly em and I'm careful attacking them.
I agree with Tac, you have to be very careful trying to rope&dope a nik, their E retention is unreal and their stability at 0-20mph unbelievable.

UnDeth · « **Reply #7 on:** June 24, 2002, 09:17:33 AM »

Great info on the 38's flipping ability. I used to fly the 38 often in AW but I've found I get owned a lot flying it in Aces. Could you elaborate on one part of this? I can flip the 38 like you mentioned quite nicely, the problem is it always seems to get atleast two tumbles before I regain controlled flight. the 38 is obviously in a major stall at the top of that climb and only it's amazing flaps keep it hanging there. My question is, can you immedinately recover without doing a few tumbles? I've wathced my fims from these maneuvers, the 38 is amazing at the top of these moves.

Thanks,

UnDeth

Tac · « **Reply #8 on:** June 24, 2002, 12:55:30 PM »

the tumbles you say are caused by your flaps pulling nose up. Keep a steady nose down force on your nose, you wont tumble. Also, that is why you cut both engines halfway in the flip, the engine you have on will cause you to roll in that direction after the flip, giving you a lot of control problems at near 0 mph. So cut it off and voila! no rolling tendency

Tac · « **Reply #9 on:** June 24, 2002, 01:12:40 PM »

Another way to do it, which is more simple but does not present itself very often when in combat is to actually do it without using flaps.

The 38 wont have any nose-pulling tendency due to the flaps, BUT that means you will have to literally fly straight up..so you wont be able to twist a bit if the con on your 6 sprays your way.

To do it without flaps, just point nose up till below 40 mph.. best if near 0 mph, cut 1 engine, rudder to that engine's side and it will flip.

Now, to not tumble on this one you need to CUT power to the engine thats still on when your nose points below horizon and give FULL power to the other engine. when your plane no longer pulls to a side, turn both engines to full power and go baby!

1)nose up till 0 mph
2)cut engine #1 to 0 man
3)rudder hard to side of engine #1
4)when nose below horizon CUT engine #2, at the same time turn Engine #1 to full power
5)let go of rudder after engine #1 is turned back on
6)with your 38 nose now pointing straight down, get both engines to max man and enjoy.

Tac · « **Reply #10 on:** June 24, 2002, 01:50:52 PM »

Here's a film with several ways to do the hammerhead.

At the end I put in a "Panic" Hammerhead, VERY usefull when you got a conga line on your ass. Its basically the same hammerhead as mentioned above except that this one does things in opposite way. You zoom up with engines to 0 man to kill your speed quickly and flip by powering the engine on the side you want to flip to, once nosed down, full power. With a conga line on your ass, if you survive to flip, chances are your opponents are doing a loop as they pull to get back on your 6, which will give them a WHOLE lotta separation all the meanwhile you've been on a powerdive and gaining mucho speed while your opponents are on top of loop at less than 100mph. Of course, the trick is to not get shot while you do it *G*

http://www.geocities.com/tacwraith/TAC38HAMMERHEAD.zip

EDIT: Above link is a GEOCITIES link. You will need to COPY the link and paste it in your browser to download.

1 meg long.

F4UDOA · « **Reply #11 on:** June 24, 2002, 03:57:21 PM »

Heya Tac,

I lost a F4U-4 to a NIK2 the other day in the same way you discribed. I was using a virtical rope and he got me while standing on his arse at 20MPH. I'm not a big NIK2 whiner but this one really surprised me. I have the film and I will post it in another thread.

humble · « **Reply #12 on:** June 24, 2002, 05:22:36 PM »

Tac,

Couldnt download the clip...would love to see it. colud you check the link or even email it to me ... macmac123@aol.com.

Thanx

akak · « **Reply #13 on:** June 24, 2002, 06:56:51 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tac
I would only agree to that akak if the 38 had massive E advantage... as in n1k is 250mph and 38 is near compression. It WILL hang on prop and stay there until you flip over in stall and whack you with d900 spray while in full control at 20 mp'ish...with WEP on too

I've never had to do that to rope a Niki. The only time I've been caught by a Niki while trying to rope one is when the Niki had an overwhelming altitude advantage over me. I thought I had forced the Niki (flown by Javier) to blow enough E for me to rope him but he caught me as I was coming over the top. The only time I dip my nose down for some extra speed is when I'm around 250-275mph on the merge, then I'll dip my nose down and unload until my speed gets above 300mph and then pull into the rope using either a normal basic zoom climb with either a stall loop or hammerhead to get over the top, a double Immel or even sometimes if I see the Niki still coming up after the double Immel, I'll throw in a hammerhead or a stall loop on top of the double Immel. If I've got a lot of E at the merge, then I'll do a triple Immel for the rope. I have a tougher time roping Spitfire MkIX's then I do Niki's.

Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders

Zaphod · « **Reply #14 on:** June 24, 2002, 11:55:46 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tac
I would only agree to that akak if the 38 had massive E advantage... as in n1k is 250mph and 38 is near compression. It WILL hang on prop and stay there until you flip over in stall and whack you with d900 spray while in full control at 20 mp'ish...with WEP on too

Ironically, the only way I find to actually ROPE the damn n1k is to LET it get close (but not at a fast close rate, maybe weaving left and right with shallow flat sciscors till it get to within d1.3).. then POWERDIVE to near compression and pull hard up on a hammerhead. If you time it right the n1k will be at d1.5 or d1.7 when you pull up, and if he follows you on the zoom he starts with lower E and with separation disadv.. thats when you can actually rope it. With a P-38 you can do a nifty trick to "flip around" instantly and not give the n1k a big, fat view of your dorsal planform... pull the 38s nose up till speed is actually 10 or 0 mph (with full flaps out btw), cut 1 engine throttle out, rudder hard to that engine's side.. the 38 will flip sideways superfast.. cut both engine's power halfway through the flip but keep the rudder pressed.. when nose down let go rudder and pull nose DOWN (no matter if nose IS pointing 90 degree down, your flaps will make it nose up and enter a flat spin, so KEEP pressure on nose down at this point). retract flaps while your powerless 38 falls earthwards.. and you can give the engines juice when you 100mph or more, giving them full power before that can stall you (well, my dual throttle is laggy in 1 engine so putting full on both makes 1 engine power faster and it enters me in spin, if you dont have this problem, juice em up at your convenience!)

Sounds complicated but you'll get to do it in a snap after a few tries.

Sadly, kaz is right. I dont even know if hes going to change it.. or fix the 38 dive flap and retracting flap issue.. OR if he even plans to add the auto-butterfly flaps to the n1k (last I heard they werent). Heck, im not new to waiting.. dozens of tours and still no green 38 heeheee *hint* *nudge*

*KICK*

-runs away-

Tac, what throttles are you using? I've been tryin to find dual throttles for some time now?

Thanks in advance

Zaphod