Author Topic: The 50 cal. Buff Gun Laser Myth, Part 2: Ballistics andEnergy (Read 1384 times)

ZioSamedi · « **Reply #15 on:** September 24, 2001, 05:55:00 AM »

I was 205 (...I suppose!)!

First attack: I heard
two, three ping! No damage on my 205!

Second attack (with big help of another knight and displeasure of Karnak <S>

): I got the Lanc (Karnak) and Lanc got me!!!!

sorry for my english!

Zioo

p.s.: I didnt see tracers or mg lamps from Lanc during my second attack (lag!?)

Naso · « **Reply #16 on:** September 24, 2001, 06:47:00 AM »

Very interesting math eskimo, <S>!

About the buff's gun thing...

Just for a moment, imagine to be a gunner in a single position in your bomber.

You have to scan sky for approaching little dots (the frontal view of a me109 or fw190 is very little up there), listening the screams in the intercom...
"8 oc high!!"
you turn your turret using your "rudder" or turn the mg (if in hand position), and start the search for the little dot... It's there!!
OK, now elaborate the relative speed of target, the amount of "lag" and start shooting (WHERE IS THE F... ICON????)....
WROOOOM the con is out of your sight...
"3 oc high!!!"
start again

It's not the gun power that give better defense to AH gunners.

It's the range finder, the "one brain, one body" effect, and the external view.

Only this...

IMHO.

Westy MOL · « **Reply #17 on:** September 24, 2001, 07:35:00 AM »

"and Lanc got me!!!!"

Odd. That part had been conveniently left out of Hazed's post.

Westy

ravells · « **Reply #18 on:** September 24, 2001, 07:46:00 AM »

A timely thread. Recently I've found fighters taking the following approach to shooting down my B-17.

He approaches at about 8 o'clock high and dives towards the tail of the 17. The tail guns can't bear on him except for a fraction and then he is below the 17. I then jump into the ball, but by the time I'm fiddling about trying to acquire him he's climbing again, now only about 400 yards away. By the time I've jumped back into the tail and acquired him, he's either crippled or killed my 17.

Any ideas as to how to counter this?

cheers

Ravs

Westy MOL · « **Reply #19 on:** September 24, 2001, 08:01:00 AM »

IMO, the only way to avoid that kind of attack (and it is the way I like to tackle a buff as it works most times) is to fly with friendly escort or at least one other bomber.

Hey!

That's kind of realistic too huh?

Westy

ravells · « **Reply #20 on:** September 24, 2001, 08:16:00 AM »

I only like realism when it's on my side!

Ravs

Naso · « **Reply #21 on:** September 24, 2001, 09:27:00 AM »

Ehm.. I was talking about the REAL gunner point of view.

They have'nt the God sight (ext view).

Nor the telepatic perfect coordination.

Nor the laser rangefinder.

With these differences we can defend a lot better our buff than them, with the same weapons.

Some solution I can suggest are:

Reduce the turn ability while in turret, the higher you go the lesser you turn with rudders.
External View only in pilot position

At 30k the buff must be a fat, heavy plane, with almost no turning ability without losing alt.

eskimo2 · « **Reply #22 on:** September 27, 2001, 03:21:00 PM »

Pepe · « **Reply #23 on:** September 28, 2001, 03:23:00 AM »

Eskimo,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you made numbers at sea level. Things would be different at altitude, since air is much thinner and drag less important. At 15000ft., air density is 63% of that at SL.

I tried to do the numbers myself, but can't manage to calculate the distance traveled by each round, as I don't have the acceleration (deceleration in this case) coefficient of the bullet.

Could you confirm this, pls?

Cheers,

Pepe

eskimo2 · « **Reply #24 on:** September 28, 2001, 08:32:00 AM »

Pepe:
Very true.
The difference between the 2 projectiles energy states would be less significant at higher altitudes.

This is the info that I used (got it from Pyro):
A 50 cal. round weighs 708 gr. and is moving 2845 fps, right out of the muzzle.
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.700
Drag Function: G1

eskimo

Pepe · « **Reply #25 on:** September 28, 2001, 10:08:00 AM »

Assuming the travel calculations are right (which, in any case, would favour the fastest bullet: i.ethe mustang's one, and I assume they are right because for a uniform movement anat given speeds the buff bullet would travel 871 yds.), and adjusting the calculations to respective alts. here are the numbers I got from that page:

5.000 ft.

Buff Round

Muzzle Speed: 2478 ft/s
Yards Travelled: 840
Final Speed with regards to Mustang: (1670 + 367)=2037 ft/sec.
Kinetic Energy: Aprox. 6500 ft/lb (interpolation between 2031.5 and 2041.1 ft/s)

Mustang Round

Muzzle Speed: 3212 ft/s
Yards Travelled: 1180
Final Speed with regards to Buff: (1924 - 367)=1557 ft/sec.
Kinetic Energy: Aprox. 3800 ft/lb

10.000 ft.

Buff Round

Muzzle Speed: 2478 ft/s
Yards Travelled: 840
Final Speed with regards to Mustang: (1778 + 367)= 2175 ft/sec.
Kinetic Energy: Aprox. 7450 ft/lb (interpolation between 2031.5 and 2041.1 ft/s)

Mustang Round

Muzzle Speed: 3212 ft/s
Yards Travelled: 1180
Final Speed with regards to Buff: (2091 - 367)=1724 ft/sec.
Kinetic Energy: Aprox. 4675 ft/lb

15.000 ft.

Buff Round

Muzzle Speed: 2478 ft/s
Yards Travelled: 840
Final Speed with regards to Mustang: (1877 + 367)= 2244 ft/sec.
Kinetic Energy: Aprox. 7925 ft/lb (interpolation between 2031.5 and 2041.1 ft/s)

Mustang Round

Muzzle Speed: 3212 ft/s
Yards Travelled: 1180
Final Speed with regards to Buff: (2244 - 367)=1877 ft/sec.
Kinetic Energy: Aprox. 5538 ft/lb

Resuming:

Relative E 5k 10k 15k
Mustang/Buff: 58.46% 62.75% 69.88%

These numbers do not take into consideration that the Mustang bullet would have a tighter trajectory (easier for lead aiming purposes)

This means that even assuming the worst scenario (dead 6, no transverse speed, AOT 0deg.) there is not such a huge advantage when alt is over 20k. I would venture that at 20k alt kinetic E of Mustang round is about 80% of Buff round, and 25k I would say over 90%, as the relative energy curve is convexe, asinthotic in 100%

When firing from the hi front hemisphere, the advantage (in terms of range and Kinetic Energy) is always on the side of the Mustang.

Cheers,

Pepe

eskimo2 · « **Reply #26 on:** September 28, 2001, 10:25:00 AM »

Good work Pepe!
<S>

eskimo

Rocket · « **Reply #27 on:** September 28, 2001, 10:32:00 AM »

ok if I am passing a bomber from nose to tail and as I pass the tail I am flying at 400mph away from the bomber do the same numbers apply?

S!
Rocket

eskimo2 · « **Reply #28 on:** September 28, 2001, 10:46:00 AM »

Sure Rocket,
Remember for every:
100 mph = 146.66 FPS = 49 YPS

eskimo

Fury · « **Reply #29 on:** September 28, 2001, 12:58:00 PM »

A stable platform (tail gunner) vs. a non-stable platform (P51 chasing) helps too.

A nice test would be someone flying a B17 and someone flying a P51. The P51 settles in on the 17s direct 6 at d1. Both planes go alt-x and fly level. Same speed, or maybe even P51 closing in. Both planes open fire. Then test at d500. Will the multiple .50s from the P51 cause more damage than the tail gunner? Who would win?

[ 09-28-2001: Message edited by: Fury ]