Author Topic: The Folly of Naval Operations in AH  (Read 495 times)

Offline Sabre

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The Folly of Naval Operations in AH
« on: June 24, 2002, 04:16:02 PM »
The Folly of Naval Operations in AH

Currently in the Aces High Main Arena environment, naval forces play a relatively minor role.  The most usual role of the standard AH task group, or TG (1xCV, 1xCA, 4xDE), is to place it within visual range of an enemy shore base and attempt to capture the base.  A combination of air-to-ground attacks (Jabo strikes) and shore bombardment is used to destroy the town and eliminate defenses, followed by an amphibious assault or airborne troop drop to affect the capture.  If the land base mounts any kind of defense, such an attack is fairly easy to thwart.  The question is, what is the best and proper use of naval forces in the AH MA?  This piece is intended to generate discussion towards this end.

Basically, it is easier to sink the CV than it is for the CV-based force to render an airfield inoperable and ready for capture.  Eight thousand pounds of bombs will sink the CV, resulting in the entire remaining TG vanishing 10 minutes later, to reappear back at it’s home port.  It can than take an hour or more to get this fleet back into position off shore of the enemy base.  Contrast this with what it takes to render a base defenseless.  It takes 12,000 lbs. of bombs to destroy all the hangers at a small base, 8,000 lbs. to destroy the shore batteries, over a thousand more to destroy all the AAA, and several thousand more beyond that to level the town in preparation for capture.  Now figure in the fact that hangers rebuild in 15 minutes – while destroyed ships do not – and you see why the land base holds the upper hand in an even contest between naval and land-based forces.  By even, I mean the same number of AH players on each side.

Historically, this is understandable.  Sea-based air power will loose against land-based air when numbers, pilot quality, intel, and technology are reasonably even.  Aircraft carriers are inherently more fragile than a base built on terra firma.  They are much more expensively, both in terms of initial cost to build and to man/operate/maintain, than an airbase.  The main, indeed the only advantage that naval forces have lies in their mobility.  They can move rapidly, not just tactically but strategically, and are thus more difficult to pinpoint for attack.  This mobility also allows them to attack at an unexpected point, and from an unexpected direction.  This was proven quite decisively during the 2001 AH scenario, “Hostile Shores.”  During frames 1 and 2, the lack of exact positions for the RN carriers prevented the Luftwaffe from getting close enough to put even one bomb on a British ship.  Conversely, in frame 3 the Luftwaffe had perfect position information on the Royal Navy carriers, thanks to the nearly invulnerable Ar234 reconnaissance planes made available to them.  The result? “Scratch one flattop.”

This is all fine and good in a scenario environment.  However, the MA practice of “CV camping” essentially takes away the only two advantages the naval force has, mobility and stealth.  This practice is understandable if one considers a couple of key, non-realistic factors in the Main Arena.  First, the big guns of the TG, the main battery of the attendant cruiser, has to be within easy visual range to be affective.  This is because (a) the waterline gun directing hampers effective targeting and (2) the need for a direct hit on by naval artillery to destroy a target.  Second, the slow speed of the LVT amphibious assault vehicles requires the fleet to be within shouting distance of the objective.  The latter was true in real life of course, but in real life the amphibious ships and naval gunfire support ships were not tied by an invisible tether to the aircraft carriers.  As it stands now naval forces in AH in general, and the aircraft carrier in particular, are mostly just window dressing.  They do not come close to having the impact on “the War” that the flattops had in real life.

How can we redress the shortcomings of naval forces in AH?  Should we even try?  It is after all primarily an air combat simulation.  The answer to this last question is “yes.”  If Aces High is to continue to evolve towards the goal of being the best WWII air combat simulation on the market, it must find a better way to represent the profound impact naval forces (particularly naval aviation) had on that conflict.  Keeping in mind the primary emphasis of the MA, i.e. intense and constant action, there are some things that can be done to influence players to utilize naval forces in a more historical, less “gamey” fashion.  I say influence players, not make them.  Excessive rules tend to make people resentful.  Far better to design the game mechanics in such a way as to reward proper behavior rather than dictate it.

First, we can acknowledge the fact that the amphibious assault craft and cruisers (and, hopefully, battleships:)) need to operate in littoral waters (i.e. shallow coastal areas), but that the carriers do not.  Separate the current standard MA fleet into two separate types of fleets, the CV battle group (CVBG) and the Amphibious Assault Group (AAG).  The AAG would have LVT’s enabled, but the CVBG would not.  Likewise, the AAG would have two cruisers at its core but no carriers, while the CVBG would have two carriers at its core but no cruisers.

Second, update the damage model of ships in general to allow them to take incremental damage, instead of the “completely operation or sunk” model we have now.  Damaged subsystems such as guns, vehicle spawning (damaged elevators for CV’s, troop transports – I can hope, can’t I – for AAG’s) would rebuild over time, just as damaged objects at land bases.  This would encourage players to consider withdrawing damaged fleets to allow for repairs, rather than the do-or-die mentality that presides over naval operations in the MA today.

Third, make naval gunfire the awesome and terrible weapon it was.  Add more realistic blast radius effects for all naval caliber weapons, as well as making the main guns of the destroyer escorts player controllable.  Move gunnery control up to the crow’s nest were it belongs, with the option to slave multiple turrets to a single gun director.

Finally, give players direct control over the helm, allowing them to control speed and heading.  So long as the TG commander stays “on the bridge”, allow him/her to con the ship manually.  As soon as they jump to a vehicle or another base/fleet, the fleet returns to its waypoint-guided course.

These are just the ideas I’ve collected so far.  I’m sure others have other suggestions.
Sabre
"The urge to save humanity almost always masks a desire to rule it."

Offline eskimo2

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The Folly of Naval Operations in AH
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2002, 06:20:04 PM »
Great ideas Sabre!

eskimo

Offline Sabre

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The Folly of Naval Operations in AH
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2002, 06:45:20 PM »
Yep, gonna keep at it till HTC tells me to "shut up and color.":D  Thank you for your support, dude.
Sabre
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Offline Steven

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The Folly of Naval Operations in AH
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2002, 06:57:20 PM »
There's really no point of Naval Air (floating/mobile airfields) if land bases are within reach of everything, which is just how Aces High maps work.

Offline MANDOBLE

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The Folly of Naval Operations in AH
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2002, 03:47:04 AM »
Sabre, your ideas are good, but take the follwing into consideration. In real live, CV vs CV battles were fights with relatively few planes involved, very "small" battles. 15 dive bombers attacking a CV would be considered a big strike while here these bombers will spawn over'n over till CV is shunk.
To recreate real battles you need not only to simulate damage for the ships (aaa defenses, lifters, etc) but also the attrition of its forces and resources. By the moment, we have no attrition, so, the CV will be easily shunk every time it is spoted by "hordes" of the same suicidal attackers over'n over.

I would like to see our MA based entirely in an atrittion/conquer system where reset may be achieved by taking fields or just by casualities. This way, if you loose to many planes trying to shink a single CV, that will have a serious impact in your remaining resources and you will be closer to lose the war.

Offline Sabre

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The Folly of Naval Operations in AH
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2002, 07:58:34 AM »
Steven, you point is well taken, as is Mandoble's.  While the new "Pizza" map the AK's came up with was a laudable effort (big "Salute" AKWabbit and company), the CV's contribute nothing of value.  I've got my own thoughts on what an MA terrain should look like, based on the new strat system, but haven't the time to devote to learning and using the TE.  Suffice it to say it would have water in and around the landmass, such that naval assaults provide a means of flanking the enemy.  It would include enough water-areas to allow fleets to maneuver and hide, when necessary.

As for attrition, I agree with you, Mandoble, in principle.  CV vs. CV battles were relatively rare, with the only truely even fights taking place the Pacific from mid 1942 to early 1943.  After that the Japanese Navy was never able to match the Allies in either quantitiy or quality.  However, CV vs. CV engagements were not the only, or even the primary contribution made by naval air.  It was their ability to project power into areas that lacked friendly land bases that made them truely important.  They could isolate enemy forces, attrit those forces, and (very importantly) prevent the enemy from reconstituting or supplying those forces.  Naval forces in AH can do the first and the third, but not the second.  So long as a hanger is up (and remember they're only down for 15 minutes), the defense has a potentially endless supply of planes and pilots.  That doesn't mean CV's and naval forces can't be used successfully used in the MA.  The steps I've outlined above are designed encourage more thoughtful use of naval forces, while acknowledging that true attrition is not present in the MA game system.

Quote
I would like to see our MA based entirely in an atrittion/conquer system where reset may be achieved by taking fields or just by casualities. This way, if you loose to many planes trying to shink a single CV, that will have a serious impact in your remaining resources and you will be closer to lose the war.


Me too, but HiTech has voiced adament opposition to this idea in the past.  I can understand his reasoning on this, too, and have yet to see someone suggest a viable alternative to base capture in the MA.
Sabre
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Offline MANDOBLE

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The Folly of Naval Operations in AH
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2002, 08:24:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre
HiTech has voiced adament opposition to this idea in the past.  I can understand his reasoning on this


What was that reasoning? It is not a matter of limiting the number of planes that can spawn from a field, it is just the number of planes you lose.

What about that simplified idea?
- Each country starts with 2000 military equipment points.
- Each fighter/GV/PT destroyed substracts 1 point.
- Each bomber/Jet destroyed substracts 5 points.
- Each hour you get 100 free "reinforcement" points plus a modifier based on number of players: (max players in a country - your country numbers points) x 2.
- Each base capture gives you 25 points.

Once your country gets to 0 points you lose the war: reset.

You may win by conquer of by causing enormous casualities to the enemy.

Offline Ripsnort

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The Folly of Naval Operations in AH
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2002, 08:35:16 AM »
Mandoble, that sounds like a great idea in a Scenario, but in Main arena play, a business like HTC just will not limit people via attrition to what they want to fly.  Its a business decision, simple as that. This has been their philosophy since 1995 and its working so far.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2002, 08:51:19 AM »
sabre... little too wordy and complex for my simple mind...  If it means that i will be able to take off from a carrier longer than i can now then I am for it.   if it means the carrier force is more vulnerable or farther from the fight then I am against it.

tougher carrier forces = good   more fragile carrier forces far away from the fight= bad.
lazs

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2002, 08:54:37 AM »
While I agree with Mandoble in principle, the de facto result would be that the country with most rookies would die off first.

We have all seen some new guy auger 10 times on the takeoff roll, give up, grab a PT and just drift off in the MA like the flying dutchman. Imagine what our reaction would be if we knew that said newbie were loosing the war for us with every crashed aircraft.

Offline Sabre

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The Folly of Naval Operations in AH
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2002, 09:30:15 AM »
Mandoble: Ah...now I misunderstood what you were saying.  I thought you meant limiting the number of a/c that can spawn at a particular base/cv to some set number per unit time (like 20 per hour, for instance).  Your idea is interesting.  You'd have to limit it to combat losses (i.e. someone is credited with the kill), to reduce the impact Hortlund has pointed out.  You'd also need to have the current losses for all three countries available on the clipboard in real time.  Otherwise, the average player jumping into the arena won't have "the big picture" of how critical the situation is.  Would you also eliminate base capture as we now know it, or include the "attrition affect" as an additional way a country would loose territory?  How would strat fit into the concept?

Lazs: Forgive my verbosity;).  I'm not suggesting any change to CV hardness, though I'd up the hardness of armored ships like cruisers and battleships to be equal to or better than the CV.  Separating the CV from the CA/LVT by having two separate TG types in the Main is meant to encourage keeping the CV just a bit farther off shore.  Not sectors away mind you;, just more like the typical distance between bases (i.e. 1 to 1&1/2 sector).  Right now, if you want to make a naval assault on a base, you have to bring the CV into close visual range of the base.  That's because that's the only way to effectively use the cruiser guns and LVT's.  This puts your flightdeck in extreme peril, resulting in quick loss of the CV and several hours wait to get it back into the fight.  The net result is slightly longer flight times each sortie, but more sorties overall because the CV is less likely to be quickly sunk.  In my experience, defenders are less likely to go after the CV if it is out of visual range of their base.
Sabre
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Offline MANDOBLE

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The Folly of Naval Operations in AH
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2002, 09:30:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
HTC just will not limit people via attrition to what they want to fly.


My idea is not impossing any limitation. You may fly what you want to fly and as many times as you want. No problem with that (all the fighters shotdown cost the same). If your country runs out of military points, we will have a reset and a new map. Where is the problem with that? Where is the limitation? This is just an alternative way to force a reset, not intended to imposse any limits.

Sabre, strat keeps the same. Base captures give you new bases and some extra military points. My proposal is considering the actual system plus casualities. If you have too many looses trying to conquer the enemy you may run out of points and lose the war. That means that an excelent defense by a coutry with few bases may be rewarded with a victory.

Basically, you lose when you run out of bases or out of points.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2002, 09:35:51 AM by MANDOBLE »

Offline Charon

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The Folly of Naval Operations in AH
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2002, 09:43:56 AM »
Great ideas Sabre. I have an idea as an addition that might work with the repetitive kamikaze tactics against the CV groups. How about, for a bomb hit to register the dropping plane has to be alive 5 seconds after impact. A bit gamey, but then, so is the Kamikaze wave assault outside of a specific, late war Pac scenario (where this feature could be unchecked). IMO, this is in line with other adjustments like disabling carbombombing and ground-based Ackstars.  Just an idea.


Charon

Offline DmdNexus

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The Folly of Naval Operations in AH
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2002, 10:11:35 AM »
"give players direct control over the helm, allowing them to control speed and heading"

What's to prevent a sabateur from driving the boat into the land?
The way points prevent this.

If manual steering of the boat is to be enabled, then also would like wind to be considered. CVs are turned into the wind for take off and landing - this would require a wind direction indicator for the helms man.

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2002, 10:37:59 AM »
Mandobole, Charon, good ideas here.  I think Rip misunderstood what you meant, same as I did.  Again, you'd have to have something on the clipboard to indicate how close your country is to running out of MP's and loosing the war.  There would be some maximum MP's "in the bank" such that no country could stockpile MP's.  Once the MP bank was full, no more would be produced.  Also, you could expand this idea, such that MP's would be produced at a rate based on the overall health of your country's strategic infrastructure.  Pound the cities, factories, and refineries and MP production per hour is slowed by a proportional amount.  It also introduces an interesting dynamic into the side balance issue.  If each side produces the same amount of MP's per hour or day, (assuming an undamaged infrastructure), independent of number of players in each country, having a huge numbers advantage could actually work against your country.  My theory is that more players for a country means more losses, as they will be on the offensive and taking greater losses.  I don't have numbers to back that up...it's just a sense I get.

DmdNexus: Simply have an automatic helm override that will temporarily take control and turn the ship away from the land when ever the ship comes within some pre-defined distance from shore.
Sabre
"The urge to save humanity almost always masks a desire to rule it."