Lets have BOTH a rolling plane set AND perk planes.

[lazs2]

yep... all these "fresh" ideas would work as well here as they did in AW and WB.   Perhaps AH could become as popular as those two games.
lazs

[Sabre]

Actually, the perk-system does work…up to a point.  The fact is, you see very few perk planes in the MA relative to the number of unperked planes.  Spit-XIV’s, Tempests, Ta152’s, Me262’s, Arados; how many of these to you see daily compared with the number P-51’s, Spit-IX’s, N1K2’s, etc?  Short of a separate arena for early-war planes (or a completely segregated early-war area in the MA, which amounts to the same thing IMO), these early planes will always be the exception rather than the rule.  But we might be able to make the currently unperked planes late-war aircraft a bit more rare.  How about keep the perk system, but just expand it to include more of the late war birds?  

WAIT! I’m not through yet.  Right now, the number of perks earned is determined solely by your plane and the one you shoot down.  Why not establish a handicap system like golfing uses?  Base each person’s perk earning potential at least partially on their number of hours on-line, or perhaps by the number of kills, or on K/D (reset when you drop your account and restart it).  The more experienced the pilot, the lower their handicap.  New pilots would earn perks quicker, more experienced pilots more slowely.  There would be some minimum and maximum possible handicap, of course.  At the start of a new tour, reset all perk accounts to a specific amount, so that everyone gets a few perk planes to start the tour with.  Everyone would still earn perks, but the better you are, the harder you’d have to work at it because of your handicap.  The combination of more planes requiring perks to fly and perk handicaps just might shift the nominal core of popular rides to earlier in the war.  Flame away!

[LLv34_Camouflage]

Originally posted by Sabre

Why not establish a handicap system like golfing uses?  Base each person’s perk earning potential at least partially on their number of hours on-line, or perhaps by the number of kills, or on K/D (reset when you drop your account and restart it).  The more experienced the pilot, the lower their handicap.  New pilots would earn perks quicker, more experienced pilots more slowely.  

Sabre, that the best most original idea for improving the perk system I've heard in a long time!  Great! Why didn't I come up with it? And I call myself a golfer... sheesh...

How about determining the handicap by the amount of perk points a player has?  This would be a good measure of experience, right?  The less perk points you have, the easier it is to get more.  The more perk points you have, the harder it gets to get more.  The biggest problem would be to determine the limits... Hmmm, how does the slope system work again...

Camo

[lazs2]

sabre... you still want a system that punishes people for flying early war planes.   I don't want an arena where the goal is to fly late war planes.  I don't care who is flying the late war planes I simply don't want them spoiling a good early war fight.   I would like early war planes to be useful on their own and not just punishment planes or behavior modifiers.

The area arena is not sepertate arenas..  A person could fly any plane he liked and communicate and track what is happening in the entire arena.   OTOH....The perk arena is the ultimate "seperate arena"  it is the Have and have not arena's...  It is not only seperated into those who have the late war planes and those who can't... it is seperated by it's lopsidedness.
lazs

[Sabre]

Thanks, Camo.  Knowing how Rip is such a big golfer, I was quite surprised he hadn't though of it himself.

Lazs: I'm not sure I understand how the perk system (as is, or as modified with a handicap system) punishes people for flying early war planes.  It's not a punishment for those that fly less capable aircraft, because nothing is taken from them when they do.  It in fact rewards them with more perks, which gives them access to more aircraft choices.  My suggestion was meant to see if we could make the current system more useful without having to scrap or drastically alter gameplay in the MA as it is currently implemented.  

The current system works to a point, but does't address your basic concern, i.e. keeping the era's separate.  I understand that.  We've discussed adnausium the pros and cons of separate arenas and area arenas, and I'm fully cognizant of your views on the subject.  Even if an area arena or separate early-war arena were established, it would not do away with the need for the perk system or something like it.  Not unless you had a separate arena or area for every 6 months of the war...and even you might agree that's not practical.  

Given that, how would you suggest the perk system be changed, assuming we don't go to a RPS?  Also (at the risk of hijacking the thread), would the ability to track other arenas using the clipboard from within an arena be an acceptable substitute to the "area-arena" option?  Do you think that would make separate arenas a viable alternative?  Assume for a moment that you won't ever get an area-arena MA.  What would be the next best thing?

[lazs2]

sabre... we are not understanding each other.   You APPEAR to believe that early war planes would be viable because a person could get out of the nasy little punishment rides easily (early war sorties worth more perkies).   I believe that flying early war planes should be an end to itself.    A viable plane choice. Not a means of getting into something "better".

MY idea allows u to fly early war planes aginst their peers.   Your idea guarentees that early war planes are at a disadvantage 100% of the time with their only saving grace being a shortcut to the "real arena planes"

I don't think that "area" arenas even need perk rides.   You could even have a perk area with nothing but the uber rides.   Every area will have some few planes that are a little better and a little more popular but.... nothing like it is now.    mid war is rich in parity as is early...  There are many late war planes that are a tossup ability wise.   It only becomes crazy and a patchwork perk system necessity when you mix all the generations together.   No... I don't want any perk rides.   Why put the best players in the best planes or.... deprive the worst players of the best planes?

maps that toggle... that was my other idea as an option.   I don't like it as much but it beats hell out of anything I've seen tried so far anywhere.    If you could toggle through the maps of each "arena" and communicate with that arena and... click on a field in that arena and simply be there... yeah...  it would be an improvement.
lazs

[Sabre]

Quite the contrary, Lazs.  I do understand you...I just don't necessarily agree with you on all points.  Perhaps I should have phrased it differently.  Instead of saying "I'm not sure I understand how the perk system (as is, or as modified with a handicap system) punishes people for flying early war planes," I guess I should have said "I don't see it as punishment."  Rather, I see the later a/c as rewards.  I suppose it reflects our differing outlooks on life.  You'll also note the following statement:

The current system works to a point, but does't address your basic concern, i.e. keeping the era's separate. I understand that.

You want a place to fly early war rides with reasonable parity.  Correct? The perk system is designed to shift the aircraft choice downwards in terms of capability, but will not address the aircraft parity issue in absolute terms.  I don't dispute that, and never have.  Only an RPS or separate arenas or areas can do that.  That's not the point of the perk system.  Its purpose is to limit the number of uber-planes you see in the MA.  It can and does do that.  My suggestion was to alter it to do a more equitable job.  We're not arguing the same argument here.

You APPEAR to believe that early war planes would be viable because a person could get out of the nasy little punishment rides easily (early war sorties worth more perkies).

Nope.  Not what I said, and not what I mean.  Getting out of early war rides faster doesn't make them more viable.  Also, I don't see them as "nasy"  (I assume you mean "nasty").  If however some changes to the perk system results in a general shift to earlier a/c, than by default it get's a little easier for those early planes to compete.  It won't help a mediocre pilot in a P-40B if it's caught by a 109G-10 flown by an experten, but it might make that occurance more rare.  Plus, by making the newbie's task of getting that 109G-10 a bit easier, and the hot-stick's job a bit tougher, you level the playing field...not aircraft to aircraft, but pilot to pilot.  You're looking for aircraft parity...I'm seeking parity in the contest (the combination of aircraft capability and pilot quality).

In any event, I would be interested to see how you would divide up the planeset by era, and into how many areas.  Let's see some details.  Post a list.  I can see it being every bit as debated as what perk costs and ENY values each aircraft should have under the current perk system.  Nonetheless, give it a try and let us see what you think.  No generalities allowed (the tool of the intellectually timid)...give us an exact list please.

[lazs2]

sabre... the reason the "perk" sytem works now is because it doesn't...  Nobody flys perk planes.   the median ability plane is not affected because pek planes are so rare.   if you perked all planes to make early planes more visible.... you would piss off the majority of players and not help the early war aficianados much.  The perk system has painted itself into a corner.

Ok... as I said... for now, an early war area would be fine.   Mid/late/uber could remain the same with the current "perk" system in place.   Better to take small steps and... get the patient breathing first... stop the bleedimg later.

early war set. NOT allied vs axis...
f4f
p39
p40b
p40e
spit 1
109e
early 110
a6m2
val
ki43
mig1
il16
hurri 1
I am sure that there are others of parity
lazs

[lazs2]

" In any event, I would be interested to see how you would divide up the planeset by era, and into how many areas. Let's see some details. Post a list. I can see it being every bit as debated as what perk costs and ENY values each aircraft should have under the current perk system. Nonetheless, give it a try and let us see what you think. No generalities allowed (the tool of the intellectually timid)...give us an exact list please.


__________________
Sabre
(S-2, The Buccaneers)"

still here sabre?   Comments?
lazs

[lazs2]

guess sabre likes it or is on vacation.  I will declare victory in any case.
lazs

[Sabre]

Actually, I was at Boy Scout camp with my son.  That list looks acceptable as a start.  I would add the Dauntless, the Ju88, and (once we get them) one or two other early-war bombers.  As I've stated before -- and as I recall, you agreed -- there must be the tools to allow base capture, or your early war arena/sub-arena will be deserted.  Base capture is the catalyst for action, and these early war fighters generally lack the ability to carry a useful JABO load.  You also need the ability to hit area targets like cities and factories because some people care about doing so.  I think a separate arena, but with the ability to see the other arenas (and perhaps jump directly from one arena to another as you've suggested) from the clipboard is the best way to implement this.  Least impact to the strategic game and logistics there in.

As far as declaring victory, feel free if it makes you happy.  I just wanted to see something concrete from you for a change.  Cheers.

P.S.  I disagree with your assessment about the perk system not working.  People do fly perk planes...you just don't see them in the numbers you would if they were free.  And even the best pilots get shot down in them.  Because you see fewer perked planes, the mid-war planes remain viable and numerous.  However, I agree that it doesn't work well enough to make the very early war rides a viable choice.  I simply feel that there are some non-perked planes in the current MA planeset that could be perked just a tad, making them a little less numerous too.  The handicap perk system would level the playing field a bit better, getting newbies into perked planes a little sooner and in greater numbers.  Again, not a perfect solution, but one that would appear to be fairly easy to implement within the framework of the game code.

[lazs2]

we agree on most everything except the main point of the perk system being of any use whatsoever except to make planes that should't be in the arena so rare as to be allmost unheard of.... allmost unheard of equals "not annoying".   Calling out the perk planes with special icons (they should be pink too) also works because it further stigmatizes them and paints a target on them.   If most of the planes were perked it would destroy that valuable quality.  

The system you suggest does nothing for early war planes except to make them a little more frequently seen and to make people resent the fact that they are being punished by being forced to fly em in an arena where they are outclassed.
lazs

[Sabre]

If most of the planes were perked it would destroy that valuable quality.

Not "most;" just a few more than there are now.  And not perked heavily like the 262, F4U-4, or Spit-XIV...more like the Chog.

The system you suggest does nothing for early war planes except to make them a little more frequently seen and to make people resent the fact that they are being punished by being forced to fly em in an arena where they are outclassed.

There would still be plenty of mid-war non-perked rides, so no one would be forced to pick an early war ride.  Perhaps I wasn't clear enough on that point, or perhaps you just missed it.  I believe I've said several times that the very early war planes would not be made significanly more numerous by the modifications to the perk system I and others have suggested.  I do believe it would make them marginally more competative in the MA, since the average aircraft choice would be closer to mid-war than to late war as it is now (1943 era).  However, not competative enough to make them a ride of choice in the MA.

To sum it up as I see it, HTC can choose to go several ways on the issue of increasing the usuage of early war planes in the MA.  An RPS is very controversial, and my gut instinct says it would be unpopular with the majority.  They could try modifying the perk system somehow, to try to get more people to fly early war in the MA, but that would not make the early war rides more fun to fly.  It would make the mid-war rides more competative and prevalent, but that's not what you're after, Lazs.  They could add a separate early war arena, or a sub-arena as you've suggested.  A sub-arena (or "area-arena" as you call it) would require some major changes to gameplay as it exist today, and possibly significant software changes.  To be viable, a separate early-war MA would have to be more accessible (or at least visible) from the Mid to late war MA (which would still need a perk system in place).  Lastly, HTC could simply decide to keep things as they are, with the early war planes seeing their main usuage in the CT, events, and scenario.  Perhaps if I get the chance to ask HiTech at the con, he'll slip up and give us a clue .  What's his favorite drink again?

[lazs2]

I too will be at the con so perhaps we can discuss this in person where I am not quite so clumsy.

I get confused with the difference between "seeing more early war planes" and "making em viable"   I don't want to see more of em if I am still in a mid war plane because they offer no challenge and.... seeing more perk rides is even worse.   I see no advantage to the perk system as you describe it at all.   I do see how my idea could at least improve the arena tho.   parity and viability wise along with variety.  I believe all three things need to be of equal importance.
lazs