Federal appeals court rules pledge of allegance unconstitutional

[miko2d]

Originally posted by Eagler
...some would argue we've already become a Godless nation...

if this board is any indication, I don't think there is an argument  

 OK, I am godless and openly admit it, but I consider myself a decent human being nevertheless. Why do you have to drive me into being a non-patriot or a lier?
 It is you right to believe that trust in God is beneficial but according to the Constitution you cannot force you beliefs on my children without my consent.

 miko

[Thrawn]

Stop it miko, you are just making the US slide into perdition that much quicker.  Do you want your nation to be bathed in hell fire??

[batdog]

Actualy Thrawn the odds are good the Bible is right. The earth will be destroyed by fire... ethier A) comet or some such from space that we just dont notice till to late. B) Nukes C) The Sun... tremendous solor flare could cook us.... we wouldnt even know it was gonna happen till to late...or perhaps it goes to a red gaint and envelopes us...


xBAT

[SOB]

I don't believe in Jebus, ain't god-fearing, but I do have pride in the principles this country was founded on, and I did say the pledge of allegence every day that I was in school.  I also agree that kids shouldn't HAVE TO say it if they don't want to...what's the difference if they do or not.

I'm not sure why everyone is so scared about others not being religeous.  I don't need an imaginary friend to tell me not to diddly over my neighbor, my parents instilled values in me.


SOB

[koala]

Yeager, I'm not saying this particular issue is unconstitutional... but it does infringe on the "Freedom of religion" dealy and "seperation of church and state"...

No it doesn't.  God does not equate to "religion" or "church".  If it said "one nation under Christianity", or "one nation under Judaism", then it would be a violation of the separation of church and state, which is obvisously why it never said that to begin with.

[koala]

It is you right to believe that trust in God is beneficial but according to the Constitution you cannot force you beliefs on my children without my consent.

Then you should be arguing against a recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance, with our without the reference to God in it.  Or is it okay to be "forced" to recite a pledge of patriotism?

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by koala


No it doesn't.  God does not equate to "religion" or "church".  If it said "one nation under Christianity", or "one nation under Judaism", then it would be a violation of the separation of church and state, which is obvisously why it never said that to begin with.

It implies monotheism.  What if you are a pantheist such as a Hindo or follow Norse theology.  The you might want to say, "One nation und Gods", right.  Or if you an athiest you might not want to say God at all.  What about if you follow the Earth Goddess figure, what should you say then?


I imagine it might be best to leave the spiritual out of it all together.

[Loyalist]

How many of you Christians here would want your son or daughter to say "One nation under Buddha" every day?

Obviously none of you.  It is your job as a parent to instill a sense of religion into your child, not the governments.  If I was athiest (which I am not) I would not want my child to be forced to say this every day.  

I agree, 110%, with this ruling.

[koala]

It implies monotheism.

Is monotheism a church?

Is monotheism a religion?

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by koala


Is monotheism a church?

Is monotheism a religion?

It implies government support of a type of religion or belief system.

[easymo]

It means a belief in one God.

[koala]

It implies government support of a type of religion or belief system.

Monotheism is not a "type of religion".  The issue is whether the pledge of allegiece violates the principle of separation of church and state.  Not whether it violates a "belief system".  By definition the constitution is a "belief system".

[Thrawn]

Fine, It implies government support of a specific religious doctrine.

[Dinger]

Uh. three issues:

1. "Under God" was not part of the original pledge of allegiance.  It was added during the Cold War.
The other change to the pledge of allegiance happened in the early forties.  The original pledge of allegiance was done with outstretched right hands -- non e of this hand-over-heart stuff.

2. Is the United States "Under God"?  Do we obey God? Do we all recognize God? Can we actually confess that our state is obedient to God? which one? whose religion determines that?  I'm sorry, a facile "it's the same God...." won't cut it.  Why the hell do you think we have so many different denominations  in this country?  It's in part a dispute over the nature of God.  Now, we're supposed to confess that we believe and follow a God when our legislators and president don't go to the same church, and have very different notions of what God is.

3. I'm sorry. No pledge of allegiance that's forced upon schoolchildren, including foreign nationals, is worth a damn.  Now add that it's allegiance to a flag and not a country, and it's even worse.


Frankly, I consider the conduct of the senate shameful.  99 people and not one with a pair of spiritual testicles to stand up for what's right?  Now that's the kind of stuff that makes me worried about my country.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Dinger
3. I'm sorry. No pledge of allegiance that's forced upon schoolchildren, including foreign nationals, is worth a damn.  Now add that it's allegiance to a flag and not a country, and it's even worse.

Ummm... Didn't the Supreme Court already rule that schools cannot force students to recite the pledge of allegiance?