Author Topic: Too many men? (Read 1211 times)

Ripsnort · « **Reply #15 on:** July 01, 2002, 02:59:21 PM »

I'm speaking since "1949", the communist regrime. Mark my words.

Sikboy · « **Reply #16 on:** July 01, 2002, 03:29:43 PM »

Here's something I wrote that covers some of the Chinese buildup. It focuses on the Naval aspect of the Chinese Military buildup, but I think that is the most important aspect with regards to US Policy.

Also: (From the Washington Post, full article is not available on-line, but was pretty cool)

Quote

China to Buy 8 More Russian Submarines

$1.6 Billion Deal Would Aid a Blockade of Taiwan, Challenge U.S. Power in Region
Article 2 of 40 found
John PomfretWashington Post Foreign Service
June 25, 2002; Page A15
Section: A
Word Count: 981

China has begun negotiations with Russia to buy eight more submarines in a $1.6 billion deal that will significantly boost its ability to blockade Taiwan and challenge U.S. naval supremacy in nearby seas, Western and Russian sources said. Four Russian producers are bidding to build the diesel-powered Project 636 Kilo-class vessels, which will be equipped with Klub long-range, anti-ship missile systems, defense experts said. China has already purchased four Kilo-class subs

The China Vs. Taiwan arms race is a facinating demonstration of Modern Deterrence theory in action.

-Sikboy

senna · « **Reply #17 on:** July 01, 2002, 03:58:08 PM »

Communist China doesnt deserve Taiwan. Taiwan is the modern day icon of the work done by people like the Flying Tigers of WWII. Its a symbol of freedom and a better way for a region that is unwilling to change due to its corrupt leaders. They dont get Taiwan. If anything the US owes Commy China a few black eyes for their meddling and involvment in Korea and Vietnam. Mao now theres a baby that shouldnt have ever been.

Sikboy · « **Reply #18 on:** July 01, 2002, 04:11:32 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by senna
If anything the US owes Commy China a few black eyes for their meddling and involvment in Korea and Vietnam.

Just wondering... If China was meddling in Korea and Vietnam, what was the US doing?

-Sikboy

Udie · « **Reply #19 on:** July 01, 2002, 04:21:51 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Sikboy

Just wondering... If China was meddling in Korea and Vietnam, what was the US doing?

-Sikboy

Well in Korea weren't we enforcing a UN mandate?, er.. ah... um... fighting for freedom/democracy? er.... stoping a bunch of North Korean (COMMUNIST) from murdering a bunch of South Koreans?

Vietnam, protecting democracy? Fighting against communism? Oh wait I forgot we were just there to kill thier babies

senna · « **Reply #20 on:** July 01, 2002, 04:36:09 PM »

Obviously Korea and Vietnam were two conflicts which were derivatives of WWII. You and I we are differernt in mind and thought. Yippy!!!

These two conflicts were proxy wars so that two world competetors could hash out their rivalries without pushing the big red button. Stupid China dumb shreck uncle Ho went red. What more do you want me to say?

Heres a modern FT for ya.

john9001 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 01, 2002, 04:37:33 PM »

china is buying russian DIESEL powered subs?? are they new subs or rusting surplus subs?

reminds me of the drug dealers that tried to buy a russian diesel sub to smuggle drugs with , they thought they were buying a fully working sub , it turned out to be a hulk, it not only would not dive , it would not even run under it's own power, and had to be towed, the deal was dropped

china and tiawan will reach an agreement just like hongkong, there will be no war , no profit

Curval · « **Reply #22 on:** July 01, 2002, 05:26:15 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by john9001
china is buying russian DIESEL powered subs?? are they new subs or rusting surplus subs?

Don't underestimate diesel powered subs. In fact they are diesel/"electric" submarines...and when running on the 'juice' they are much quieter than nuclear submarines. The downside, of course, is that they need to surface (or snorkle) to run the diesels so they can re-charge their batteries again.

Sikboy · « **Reply #23 on:** July 01, 2002, 07:34:59 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Udie

Well in Korea weren't we enforcing a UN mandate?, er.. ah... um... fighting for freedom/democracy? er.... stoping a bunch of North Korean (COMMUNIST) from murdering a bunch of South Koreans?

Vietnam, protecting democracy? Fighting against communism? Oh wait I forgot we were just there to kill thier babies

Wow, holy dipshit!

No really. My point was that China was doing the same thing we were doing, namely, looking out for their interests in the region. I found it ironic that one could consider China's actions to be "meddling" but not the US. In the context of George Kennan's domino theory I fully understand and support our actions in the region. Of course like many Americans I believe that the Johnson Administration dropped the ball in prosecuting the war in Vietnam, but that's some hindsite analysis.
So anyhow, unclench dude. Really, you're going to blow and O-ring.

-Sikboy

funkedup · « **Reply #24 on:** July 01, 2002, 08:09:19 PM »

No wonder they're all over here. They're just looking for some p___y.

-dead- · « **Reply #25 on:** July 01, 2002, 10:53:52 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by senna
Communist China doesnt deserve Taiwan. Taiwan is the modern day icon of the work done by people like the Flying Tigers of WWII. Its a symbol of freedom and a better way for a region that is unwilling to change due to its corrupt leaders. They dont get Taiwan. If anything the US owes Commy China a few black eyes for their meddling and involvment in Korea and Vietnam. Mao now theres a baby that shouldnt have ever been.

ROFLMAO!!!! Taiwan's a symbol of freedom? Yeah rrright - they got democracy in 1992. So 10 years of democracy, and 43 years of Military Junta rule (37 years under Martial law banning opposition parties) is your symbol of freedom. Hmmm not my idea of freedom. And Taiwan has its share of corrupt leaders - see the accountancy fiasco over the French Frigate purchase.
Here's a quote from the Guardian on the KMT losing to Chen Shui Bian:

Quote

The death warrant of the Kuomintang (KMT) - the Chinese Nationalist Party which ruled the mainland for more than three decades and then Taiwan for another five - was signed at the weekend, when Chen Shui-bian won the presidency.
This militaristic machine, modelled on the Soviet Communist Party in the 1920s, has been forced to yield ground to the opposition over 15-20 years to the point where Taiwan is a free society with free elections. But it failed to reform its own political practice while becoming mired in corruption.

Full story

Meddling in Vietnam & Korea, eh? Whereas, of course, the US has borders with both these countries and therefore is perfectly justified in taking an interest...

-dead- · « **Reply #26 on:** July 01, 2002, 11:28:44 PM »

Ripsnort - I was just giving you a overview of the Chinese attitude to the rest of the world. I know you were talking post 49.

But my point stands - if the Commies want to take over the entire world, why haven't they started? Mongolia for instance. They'd be a pushover. Or North Korea - they'd be easy too. Nepal? Pakistan? India? Kazakhstan? Burma?
Here's what Vietnam's Secretary General, Le Duan wrote about China's Foreign relations attitude in 1979 (after China attacked Vietnam in response to Vietnam's invasion of Cambodia).

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Although the Chinese helped [North] Korea, it was only with the aim of protecting their own northern flank. After the fighting had finished [in Korea] and when the pressure was on Vietnam, he [this appears to be a reference to Zhou Enlai as the text soon seems to suggest] said that if the Vietnamese continued to fight they would have to fend for themselves. He would not help any longer and pressured us to stop fighting.
When we had signed the Geneva Accords, it was precisely Zhou Enlai who divided our country into two [parts]. After our country had been divided into northern and southern zones in this way, he once again pressured us into not doing anything in regard to southern Vietnam. They forbade us from rising up [against the US-backed Republic of Vietnam]. [But] they, [the Chinese,] could do nothing to deter us.

Full document
Ooo the filthy war mongers!

World conquest is not in China's interest - its not even in the PLA's interest. Stability is better for the PLA - that way the PLA can sell more stuff (the PLA owns a lot of civilian manufacturing factories). They don't take kindly to people meddling in their own affairs though - which maybe a kick back from the hard time they had at the hands of Western colonial powers.
The Chinese attitude to world conquest? I reckon it goes along the lines of: "The world? Pah! You can keep it - we got the best bit already." Attitude to the US? "Wanna buy some US flags? I can get them for you wholesale..."

Hortlund · « **Reply #27 on:** July 02, 2002, 03:38:57 AM »

China doesnt deserve to be a country at all actually. It would be better if centralized control vanished, and the people would degenerate back to some 500AD warlord level.

China is an agressive nation, a warmongering nation, a nation without any respect whatsoever of human rights. China is the enemy.

Hortlund · « **Reply #28 on:** July 02, 2002, 03:42:58 AM »

Tibet anyone?

Hey there's a nation inhabited by Budhist monks. They pose no threat to anyone anywhere. Lets invade them and annex them.

%&¤# Chinese

-dead- · « **Reply #29 on:** July 02, 2002, 05:39:36 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hortlund
Tibet anyone?
Hey there's a nation inhabited by Budhist monks. They pose no threat to anyone anywhere. Lets invade them and annex them.
%&¤# Chinese

You're fogetting the British - they invaded Tibet twice. And the Nepalese (who were repelled by a Chinese army). The filthy swine.

The official Chinese line is that Tibet was liberated from the harsh feudal system in place under the rule of the monks - which I don't buy for a nanosecond... My guess is it was seen as a good buffer against India & Russia, and its annexing was a return to the glory days of the Manchu dynasty's realms....

So are we to assume that world domination has merely been put "on hold" for 52 years after it's great start in Tibet, by this "agressive, warmongering nation"? If so what's the hold up? Or is this 52 year "time out" because they just don't want those other bits?