Author Topic: Too many men?  (Read 1355 times)

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2002, 11:32:52 AM »
Belittling sources is as old as the Spanish Inquisition, find another play ground ploy Midnight, it will not erase the fact that there is a clear and present danger lurking on the horizon.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2002, 11:37:08 AM by Ripsnort »

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2002, 11:37:17 AM »
So if your source is no better than the World Wide Globe or the Enquirer and I point that out, I have violated some sort of BBS rule? Please!

This ain't your personal playground Rip.

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2002, 11:38:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
So if your source is no better than the World Wide Globe or the Enquirer and I point that out, I have violated some sort of BBS rule? Please!

This ain't your personal playground Rip.


The quote above is from the Congression records, is that not a valid source?

Re:
Quote

                                                        It is the policy of the United States to consider any effort to determine the future of Taiwan by other
                            than peaceful means, including by boycotts or embargoes, a threat to the peace and security of the
                            Western Pacific area and of grave concern to the United States; to provide Taiwan with arms of a
                            defensive character; and to maintain the capacity of the United States to resist any resort to force or
                            other forms of coercion that would jeopardize the security, or the social or economic system, of the
                            people of Taiwan.

Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2002, 11:40:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort

It is the policy of the United States to consider any effort to determine...[/i]
The United States takes its obligation to assist Taiwan in maintaining a self-defense capability very seriously...

Yes, this is a rational plan that has been developed not by looking at the Chinese as warmongerers or being bent on global domination, but rather by looking at the Chinese who have never disguised the fact that they want Taiwan back. I read a good deal on the policy, and agree with it. Makes me wonder if we contract to sell Aegis next year (which would be in line with my paper of 2 years ago I believe).

Quote

Also, old news below, but its military build up in the area not only shows that it intends agression, but will do it soon.

Cool
Quote
From the Article Posted by Rip
Taiwan is virtually defenseless against the 250 missiles now deployed by Beijing," noted Al Santoli, senior foreign policy adviser to Rep. Dana Rohrabacher

There he is! That's who I figured was responsable (in part) for the "Congressional Report" mentioned by the godwatch website. Mr. Rohrabacher is instrumental in our deterrence policy agaist China with regards to Taiwan. I respect the man very much, but I don't think he believes everything he says. But someone has to say it in order to get things done. He used to piss me off, but I think I have a better understanding now that I've pulled back and looked at the big picture.

Oh, and he's from California, so Hahahaha! take that all you Right Wing California Haters!

-Sikboy
« Last Edit: July 02, 2002, 11:45:04 AM by Sikboy »
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2002, 11:50:53 AM »
OK let me try to sort this out.

1. Rip says that China is bent on World Domination.

2. He uses sources that are dubious at best to back up this claim.

3. Included in those sources are quotes from the Congressional Record.

4. Rip claims that I am questioning the Congressional Record instead of his sources. (smooth)

5. The quote from the Congressional Record is a policy statement regarding our commitment to protect Taiwan.

6. This has nothing to do with WORLD DOMINATION, just China & Taiwan.

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2002, 11:55:47 AM »
Well, we did stray from the original topic, (what thread does not?)

I am saying that Taiwan is at risk, so is the US at an economic level at this point, vs China. Might be at a military level later... Lets see what happens.

I'll consider your post a "I stand corrected" post.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2002, 12:06:55 PM »
No, it's a You stand corrected post. ;)

BTW Here's Dana the Congressional Surferboy:

Offline -dead-

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« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2002, 12:34:07 PM »
Oh No! You mean the PRC has much more military stuff than Taiwan: How can that be unless they're planning an invasion...?

Might it possibly be because:

Taiwan...
Area: total:  35,980 sq km
land:  32,260 sq km
water:  3,720 sq km
Population: 22,370,461 (July 2001 est.)  
Area - comparative: slightly smaller than Maryland and Delaware combined  
Land boundaries: 0 km  
Coastline: 1,566.3 km  
Maritime claims: exclusive economic zone:  200 NM
territorial sea:  12 NM  

... is just a little bit smaller than...

...China
Area: total:  9,596,960 sq km
land:  9,326,410 sq km
water:  270,550 sq km  
Population: 1,273,111,290 (July 2001 est.)  
Area - comparative: slightly smaller than the US  
Land boundaries: 22,147.24 km
Coastline: 14,500 km  
Maritime claims: contiguous zone:  24 NM
continental shelf:  200 NM or to the edge of the continental margin
territorial sea:  12 NM
“The FBI has no hard evidence connecting Usama Bin Laden to 9/11.” --  Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI, June 5, 2006.

Offline Montezuma

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« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2002, 12:53:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
No, it's a You stand corrected post. ;)

BTW Here's Dana the Congressional Surferboy:



Dana is my local Congressman, much to my embarrassment.

I don't doubt that he actually surfs, but I have never seen him out at any of the local breaks.

Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2002, 12:58:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Montezuma



Dana is my local Congressman, much to my embarrassment.

I don't doubt that he actually surfs, but I have never seen him out at any of the local breaks.


Haha! Take that ACLU Boy!
:)
There may be Junkies Whinos Pimps and potatos in Orange County, but they all vote Republican I guess lol.

-Sikboy
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline senna

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« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2002, 04:07:24 PM »
quote: -dead-
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ROFLMAO!!!! Taiwan's a symbol of freedom? Yeah rrright - they got democracy in 1992. So 10 years of democracy, and 43 years of Military Junta rule (37 years under Martial law banning opposition parties) is your symbol of freedom. Hmmm not my idea of freedom. And Taiwan has its share of corrupt leaders - see the accountancy fiasco over the French Frigate purchase.
Here's a quote from the Guardian on the KMT losing to Chen Shui Bian:
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-Dead-, sorry but nothing is perfect in this world. I consider this improvement and progress. Every Country has a bit of shadiness in its history and nothing good happens overnight. Considering that the KMT were the lesser of two evils emerging from a by gone era of oligarchy, then fought WWII against the invading Japanese, then against the local Chinese communist party, losing and fleeing to Formosa (Taiwan), I dont officially agree with all of their decisions made however I understand to a certain extent. So does the US Govt and their policies up to today as they are considered friendlies in that region.



------from the article---------------------------------------------------------
Official KMT propaganda presents the growth of democracy as a natural process. Improvements in literacy, economic growth and social mobility all created rising expectations. The turning point was the lifting of martial law and of the ban of political parties in 1986. Two rounds of constitutional reform culminated 10 years later when Lee Teng-hui won the first presidential election.

But this version ignores years of struggle and repression. Taiwanese had learnt to hate the KMT even before Chiang Kai-shek's flight from the mainland. In February 1948 a mass protest led to bloody suppression.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I consider this just the price of freedome for that nation as all nations have had to pay their own dues. Even the US with its Revolutionary war and Civil wars...


quote: -dead-
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Meddling in Vietnam & Korea, eh? Whereas, of course, the US has borders with both these countries and therefore is perfectly justified in taking an interest
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No the US does not have borders with these two countries however after world war II, emerging from that as the predominate world superpower vs the USSR, the issue of important borders and securities had become grossly vague and even more so today as the world is now high tech. The borders today are at the airport security check points and the battlefields are between 30 thousand feet over New York or another city and the side of a sky scraper. These battlefields the US is not fully capable of winning, thus the campaign in Afganistan. Everything else in between is gray now.


quote:
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Although the Chinese helped [North] Korea, it was only with the aim of protecting their own northern flank. After the fighting had finished [in Korea] and when the pressure was on Vietnam, he [this appears to be a reference to Zhou Enlai as the text soon seems to suggest] said that if the Vietnamese continued to fight they would have to fend for themselves. He would not help any longer and pressured us to stop fighting.
When we had signed the Geneva Accords, it was precisely Zhou Enlai who divided our country into two [parts]. After our country had been divided into northern and southern zones in this way, he once again pressured us into not doing anything in regard to southern Vietnam. They forbade us from rising up [against the US-backed Republic of Vietnam]. [But] they, [the Chinese,] could do nothing to deter us.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


My opinion, they would rather have a split neighbor than a longshot unified communist neighbor. After Korea, they figured that the Communist party in Vietnam could not pull off a victory against the US in terms of general political outcome post war. My question is where did all of the fancy weapons come from. Where were the mig pilots and SAM operators trained. How were they funded through this war for so long against the US. After all this document comes from a public peoples library in a communist country. Thats what they want everyone to believe. I cant comment on what really happened however my opinion is that, of course they were involed in some way. They had their own changing interests and in general its called meddling.

Offline senna

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« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2002, 04:19:08 PM »
Quote ripsnort:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That could be a likely scenario...you DO know what China's Gov't doctrine is don't you?

To rule the world, by whatever means it takes.(Lately, they're taking the economic route, as many overseas Asian investors are now turning toward China rather than the Western countries) At least they get right to the point.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No its not. Jeeze they have no overall goal to dominate the world however they do have the goal of remaining the strongest in the region.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2002, 09:12:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Montezuma



Dana is my local Congressman, much to my embarrassment.

I don't doubt that he actually surfs, but I have never seen him out at any of the local breaks.


You think thats embarassing? My Rep is Sonny's Wife.

Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #58 on: July 03, 2002, 09:17:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by senna
They had their own changing interests and in general its called meddling.


I still don't get it Senna. How is China meddling when they support the communist side of these proxy wars, but the US not medling when they support the non-comunist side. You've mentioned that these were proxy wars, and I don't think that many would contest that. But these wars were fought between opposing ideologies, and not opposing nations. It wasn't the USSR and the USA that were fighting, but rather the idiologies of Communism and liberal democracy. At least in the minds of our Policymakers it was (Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations" for example).  China even had a regional interest in the outcome, being that its located next door.

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Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline senna

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« Reply #59 on: July 03, 2002, 02:28:30 PM »
I never said the US wasnt meddling in some way. Thank god the whole communist thing vs the free world is for the most part over. That entire affair was really dangerous and things got very hot on serveral occasions. I personally believe that eventually China will succumb and revert from Communism. I'm  less clear about North Korea and Vietam but I expect them to follow suit after China does and not before. Maybe Communism isnt so important of a factor anymore but I'm still old enough to remember when it was, which was most of my life till recent.