Author Topic: b-17 duribility (Read 631 times)

NOD2000 · « **on:** July 01, 2002, 06:45:24 PM »

this just makes me think the duribility of the 17 in Ah..........

got this picture from a old book i have on B-17's

NOD2000 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 01, 2002, 06:46:09 PM »

Chris · « **Reply #2 on:** July 01, 2002, 07:03:46 PM »

Guess they for got to tell the guys in the 17's over germany they weren't aloud to go down in one pass;)

I wonder how many 30mm hits a 262 could get on a b17 in one pass? How many 30mm hits could a b17 take and still stay in the air? I know they sometimes came back a flying wreck, but for each one that did how many didn't? The U.S. lost some where around 5,000 b17's in WWII, most in Europe.

I know they didn't always go down in one pass but sometimes they did.

regards,
Chris

Lone Wolf · « **Reply #3 on:** July 01, 2002, 07:38:26 PM »

Lots of buffs came back in rough shape, but many, many did not.
The Luftwaffe did a study once late in the war that indicated that 3 (three) properly placed 30mm shells could bring down any plane...including the 17. I don't have the info in front of me, but I suspect it was in the wing root area....30 mm is a pretty big shell and the 17 is not that heavily armored (I've flown in one several times as part of CAF)
LW

Taiaha · « **Reply #4 on:** July 01, 2002, 07:57:11 PM »

The Smithsonian Air and Space Museum has a fantastic wall-sized display of some of these badly damaged planes that made it back, most of them are 17s. Some of the damage has to be seen to be believed--entire nose sections gone, missing elevators and rudder (no chance of getting one of those home in AH) and one photo of a 17 with a car-sized hole through the fuselage. (One of my long-term scale model projects is to try and replicate one of these extreme-damage survivors).

But then in the display next to the 262 they have a video of early 262 flight tests, and one short fragment of gun camera from (presumably) a 262. But there's no mistaking the fact that you're seeing the effect of a 30mm shell. One round hits the left wing and blows an enormous hole, burning fuel begins to pour out before the film cuts off. That's one round. It's a sobering piece of footage that really helps to put those other photos of the ones that made it back in context.

Fester' · « **Reply #5 on:** July 01, 2002, 08:38:58 PM »

Without having more than a highschool education I think you can sum up the results of the examples of the damage of B-17's who made it home in "amazing" condition as the law of averages.

You have a somewhat over engineered airplane and thousands of opportunities to damage it (someone said 5000 shot down) you are going to see instances where a plane unbelievably makes it home.

I think that the important thing to note is that this was definately the exception not the rule. Many many planes went down with far less damage.

Kweassa · « **Reply #6 on:** July 01, 2002, 08:51:20 PM »

Damage modelling's fine.

40k B-17s out maneuvering Ta-152H-1s is what pisses people off.

Samm · « **Reply #7 on:** July 01, 2002, 09:32:46 PM »

Not sure where I read it but the LW supposedly had surmised that it took an average of twenty 20mm shell hits to kill a four engine bomber .

Furious · « **Reply #8 on:** July 01, 2002, 09:38:36 PM »

Now that is what I call the results of a slashing attack.

F.

NOD2000 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 01, 2002, 09:41:27 PM »

(shrugs) eh well i am just sayin............ i have been reading about the 17 for 12 years and have read many many many books on them..........

i do not go by luftwaffa results cuz they are known for boasting..........hell i've seen copies of files of 17's they thought went down but accually made it home............ or at last was able to ditch in the english channel but whent 100 - 200 miles just to get to it while the luft guys thought they were dead

i do not go by bombers results cuz they do not include those that ditched in the ocean and sometimes it didn't get put down if 3 or 4 bombers were late cuz they were runin off 2 eng's

i go by personal stories where they wrote home or told it to me or told a author....................... ...

i can name 2 pilots that came home with over 1,000 machine gun and canon holes in the plane and i can find thousands of names that made it home on a prayer...........

It just pisses me off so bad when i climb up to 15k mabey 10k and get hit by 1 20mm and my whole wings rips off......... and i have seen many gun cams on the 109's 190's etc etc etc etc and they show them taking beating after beating after beating after beating........... and no i am not a bad gunner or anything hell my high is 25 kills in the 26....... but i've just seen way to many instances on AH that my plane goes down under stupid cercumstances................ . oh yea my favorite is the mustang or p47 with the same D* .50's i got hit me mabey 10-15 times and end 3 & 4 are dead with no alerion or flap....... and if i hit him 10 - 15 times nothing bad happens to him...........

Soviet · « **Reply #10 on:** July 01, 2002, 09:53:01 PM »

those were most likely rare instances. 1,000 MACHINE GUN and cannon shells. I find that believable, if the damage is spread about the whole buff. B-17s are fine, they take about the right amount of damage to bring down. Give it a stronger damage moddled, toss in it's high alt dogfighting ability plus it's turbolazers and you have a receipe for uberness.

muckmaw · « **Reply #11 on:** July 01, 2002, 09:54:00 PM »

I've made this argument myself before. Maybe I'm partial to the 17 and the 26 because they are my ride of choice. They just seem aweful fragile to me. Just once, I'd like to see someone put up some stats by Boeing as per the durability/survivability of the 17. If anyone knew how much this plane could take, it would be the manufacturer. But then, you could argue that Boeing would overstate the Durability of the A/C just to get or keep the military contract. Who knows.

And how many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a toostie pop?

Soviet · « **Reply #12 on:** July 01, 2002, 09:59:10 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by muckmaw

And how many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a toostie pop?

the commercials claim 3 but i believe this is propaganda

Samm · « **Reply #13 on:** July 01, 2002, 10:10:07 PM »

Ever notice how durable buffs are when you're are trying to shoot them down ? Ever notice how fragile buffs are when you are the buff pilot ?

I think some of the reason why planes like the Il2 don't seem to live up to their real life reputation is that in AH every bullet that strikes a plane will do some damage to that plane . In WWII I imagine that many rifle calibre bullets would just penetrate through without doing much damage, or in the case of the Il2 just bounce off .

Kronos · « **Reply #14 on:** July 01, 2002, 11:59:31 PM »

Quote

oh yea my favorite is the mustang or p47 with the same D* .50's i got hit me mabey 10-15 times and end 3 & 4 are dead with no alerion or flap....... and if i hit him 10 - 15 times nothing bad happens to him...........

Hmm... a standard 90 deg. dive on a b17 so only his top turret can fire yields this.

2x 50. cals firing at a fast diving enemy.

8x 50. cals firing at a huge target, in a concentrated area.

8x 50 cals win.

at the same time, a p47/mustang ie any plane that attacks a b17 from dead six is just plain stupid and dead.

The other thing you need to realize nod, is that just because u only hear 10 pings, doesnt mean thats only what hit you. Rates of fire on p47 is tremendous, therefore if you don't have a perfect connect, some of those pings might lump together to form "big pings"