Author Topic: b-17 duribility  (Read 630 times)

Offline Samm

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b-17 duribility
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2002, 11:43:36 AM »
Browning .5" weighs 9.73g
M2 rate of fire 1200 rpm

So it adds up to 205.5lbs a minute or 3.4lbs a second, does that sound about right ?

Offline Kronos

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« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2002, 11:52:46 AM »
it might be 12 lbs a second, (I know it was 12lbs, but cant remember if it was a second or a minute)  i cant remember anymore, and cant find the references either.


 And HFMudd, it .50 cals may not have been "explosive" as in cannon rounds, but they did have inciendery rounds.  (Especially useful in the Pacific, since Japanese aircraft were for the most part weakly armoured.)  


I have heard of them blowing trains off the track, but I can't find a reference for that either.  I'll let Taiaha answer that one.

Offline HFMudd

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« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2002, 12:36:27 PM »
Kronos,

I've no doubt that a .50 could manage to do enough damage to a train or track to cause a train to derail.  But the intent of the post that pegs my BS meter is pretty clearly that the force of the rounds push the train over.  

Ignore the P47 for the moment and imagine a single Browning M2 HMG sitting on a tripod in a ground emplacement.  Now imagine what would happen if, during the course of say a 5 second (long burst for a plane right?) burst it 1/8th of the energy required to push a train over.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2002, 01:02:52 PM by HFMudd »

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2002, 12:49:04 PM »
Incidently, what sort of attacks would we do against multiple buff formations now?

 Peel off like an onion?? HO the furthest left or right buff? Come screaming down from above and smash right through the middle of the "box"??

 Would rockets have better chance to hit something now?

Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2002, 01:14:05 PM »
I completely believe that damage from .50's caused trains to derail.

Remember, a steam engine uses steam under very high pressure--probably around 180-220 PSI for the german locomotives then in use, possibly as high at 240 PSI.  

You all know what happens when you shoot a pressurized air tank with a rifle....in the case of a steam engine, we're talking about a pressure tank 60 feet long (or more).

The force of the explosion from the steam loco's boiler is what was driving them off the track, not the bullets themselves.

J_A_B

Offline CMC Airboss

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« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2002, 01:29:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ghosth
How much did do you think the average WWII fighter jock flying a p51 or P47 had total shooting his guns?

Remember, Yeager got 5 kills,

This is a misleading example of gunnery prowess since two of those aircraft collided with each other during Yeager's attack.  He was, however, credited with their destruction.  

I would argue that AH pilots, on average, have much better gunnery skills than their WW2 counterparts.  They are able to land more hits in a shorter amount of time.  If the shooter is accurate, it may only take one pass to land enough hits to do severe or fatal damage.  

I would also argue that bombers suffer fewer losses as they gain altitude and speed.  A fast or maneuvering B-17 or Lanc at 30k+ can force their pursuers to commit an attack at the 6 o'clock position - the best place for an effective defense.  

A low bomber is easily outperformed by a fighter (expecially one with good pilot) that can pick and choose the most effective attacks with minimum risk from defensive guns.  The best bomber killers aim for the cockpit where a single volley of hits can take out the flight crew.  Tough to do from a 6 o'clock attack and best done with a slashing frontal attack.  Flying low makes a buff an easy target for a single pass kill.

Should the bombers be made tougher because poeple aren't flying them where they are least vulnerable?  High and fast?

MiG

Offline Mino

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« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2002, 01:44:50 PM »
Most people want to believe that the LW shot down most of the bombers over Europe.  This is not correct.  

If memory serves correctly over 80% (could be 90%) of the bombers were lost do to AAA damage.  

The German 88's were deadly.

Offline SunKing

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« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2002, 02:47:45 PM »
Quote
Incidently, what sort of attacks would we do against multiple buff formations now?


Being a Bfg-110 fan. I can't wait to try out the ack rockets on the formations we will see.

Offline HFMudd

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« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2002, 03:23:56 PM »
Quote
Remember, a steam engine uses steam under very high pressure--probably around 180-220 PSI for the german locomotives then in use, possibly as high at 240 PSI.


Oh, it's more than just the pressure in the case of a boiler.  Since the water in the boiler is being held at the pressures you mention above, the water temperature is considerably greater than 212 farenheit.  Once the boiler fails that water is able to flash into steam which fills a volume far larger than the boiler itself.  (I forget the actual expansion ratio.)

Be that as it may though, the origonal post above I took issue with was not that a 50 cal. could cause a train to derail, it was that the weight of fire from a P47 could PUSH a train over if it hit it in the side.  That contention simply does not stand up to any kind of scrutiny.

(Sorry for the thread hijack everyone.  I promise I will let this drop now.)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2002, 03:27:13 PM by HFMudd »