Author Topic: sort it out  (Read 2635 times)

Offline straffo

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« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2002, 10:01:17 AM »
The debate were more abut security than US bashing ...

except some not representatives party who are doing US bashing since ages ...

Offline Glasses

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« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2002, 10:03:29 AM »
If President Wilson had stood firm in his feeling towards the unjust  Versaille Treaty and not allowing it to be thrown to Germany by France and Britain at the end of WW1 then maybe during the 20s there would have not been an atmosphere by which an organization like the Nazis would have come to power in Germany  thus starting WW2. So there you go it's all relative.

Considering the "Evil" German military respected the Genova convention greatly(except the SS of course) and seldom saw civilians as targets,not that they didn't bomb them they sure did ,but it being a tactical minded military they preffered to destroy the enemy in the field, (though the Blitz on London was a gamble on Churchill's part after the single JU88 bomber dropped it's bombs  on the city by mistake which he took to stride to exploit the situation calling it a deliberate attack on civilians and retaliate on Germany making the volatile  Hitler do the same to them and make  military targets in England have a breather,it worked nicely for them at the end. :D ) they did  use it as a last resort.

I do agree Udie in the fact the US had the right to attack because Hitler did declare War what he thought was complying with his "alliance" with the Japanese empire which was a defensive not  an offensive alliance, an idiotic gamble that cost Germany the war and the lives of many  innocent civilians, there's no doubt about that.

Udie it was excusable because they told the aircrews they were killing Nazis and no matter who you were if you were living in Germany during the period of 1933-1945 the propaganda said you were a Nazi thus the de humanization effect took stride that the Nazi propaganda used against the Jews and the Allies did  to justify the mass murder of civilians, that still lives today .

The US did help to reconstruct Germany after the war but not because they were doing it out of the goodness of their hearts it was because the new enemy was the Soviet Union and in a war of propaganda like the Cold War was  they had to do everything in their power to make their enemy look bad  and what they hoped would stop the spread of communism through out Western Europe.The point is that it wasn't a political descision it was a sound strategy to descredit communism and descredit what the Soviet system stood for.  Simple as that.

Offline RRAM

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« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2002, 10:06:14 AM »
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Originally posted by Udie



 No get it through your head.  No international court has the right to try an American, PERIOD. Never will.  Don't like it?  Hehe cool that makes me feel a little bit better.   Basicly you can kiss our collective asses.



Udie... :(

Then you people ask why you are generally unpopular in the rest of the world. Paragraphs like this show a level of arrogance that will get no sympathies anywhere else. And is an arrogance shared by many of you in USA -at least what I can see from this limited point of view-.

One thing is to feel proud of your nation, another is to bash other countries because you feel proud of your nation.

Respect, in order to be respected. If you go over the world saying things like those, then don't be surprised if people don't like america as you think they should do.



 
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Want to adopt our constitution and make the EU the 51st state?  Then maybe we can talk, othewise keep your court to yourself. We have better laws here.




I repeat what I've said a lot of times. Yours is a great nation, and you have reasons to feel proud of it. But that doesn't mean that the rest of the nations are automatically WORSE than yours at anything, including laws.

You assume too much saying that "We have better laws here". What makes them so superior to, say, Spanish or British or German law?.

Offline Udie

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« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2002, 10:19:45 AM »
Originally posted by RRAM



Udie...  

Then you people ask why you are generally unpopular in the rest of the world. Paragraphs like this show a level of arrogance that will get no sympathies anywhere else. And is an arrogance shared by many of you in USA -at least what I can see from this limited point of view-.



 Well I should say that I don't like to be arrogant. But to me, when I list out the good things that my country has done for the world it's not being arrogant.  It's informing a stupid European person like good old judge Hortland that America is not evil, but that we are good.  I'm fully aware of the mistakes we have made in the past and that we will make them again, we are afterall human.


I repeat what I've said a lot of times. Yours is a great nation, and you have reasons to feel proud of it. But that doesn't mean that the rest of the nations are automatically WORSE than yours at anything, including laws.

 I don't think any of the European nations are any worse than us.  Never said that never will.  I do however believe that the US has the best laws ever in the history of man.  And that doesn't mean I like them all.  I think we have way to many.  I just haven't seen anything better in history or from my limited travel and/or limited knowledge of the world.


You assume too much saying that "We have better laws here". What makes them so superior to, say, Spanish or British or German law?.  

 To me as an American that statement is true, sorry buddy.   I'm sure that the laws in Spain are the best to you.  But to me I don't need, as Eagler put it, "Lefty Europes" judging us.  Which is something I know they do already.  But why should we add bite to their bark?

 Sorry for the tone of my posts but Im getting tired of Euro's trashing/bashing America.  We're supposed to be friends remember?

Offline Udie

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« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2002, 10:29:55 AM »


 

 That's it im outa this thread......

[edit]


I need to learn to listen to myself.....
« Last Edit: July 02, 2002, 03:51:29 PM by Udie »

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2002, 10:36:02 AM »
:eek: I agreed with Eagler!!:eek:

I think a swarm a locusts must be right around the corner.

Offline Charon

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« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2002, 10:42:53 AM »
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If President Wilson had stood firm in his feeling towards the unjust Versailles Treaty and not allowing it to be thrown to Germany by France and Britain at the end of WW1 then maybe during the 20s there would have not been an atmosphere by which an organization like the Nazis would have come to power in Germany thus starting WW2. So there you go it's all relative.


If you look at the change in voter patterns around 1932, the shift from the SPD on the left, and from the various competitive rightist parties to the Nazi's was driven by the worldwide depression arriving in Germany more than any other factor. Many socialists either found themselves out of a job, or off the dole, making the SPD less attractive to the middle of the road supporters. Ironically, many of the Nazi's early economic successes were actually related to SPD infrastructure programs finally getting underway. As for the rightists, well, their small, stogy parties were hardly dynamic in this time of crisis, so there was a shift to the Nazis on the right. In some areas, additional issues like Versailles played well, in others the Jews, in most the Communists, factor in Hitler's personality-- but the main driver was apparently economic fear with a clear cause and effect.

So, it's not really all relative if you look at actual voter records. Versailles had been around for 15 years, the Nazis for much of that, and the electoral support shifted only when the first impacts of the great depression hit home. Try reading, among numerous academic works on the subject, "The Nazi Seizure of Power, the experience of a single German Town, 1930-1935" (updated recently to include 1935-45).

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Udie it was excusable because they told the aircrews they were killing Nazis and no matter who you were if you were living in Germany during the period of 1933-1945 the propaganda said you were a Nazi thus the de humanization effect took stride that the Nazi propaganda used against the Jews and the Allies did to justify the mass murder of civilians, that still lives today.


Well, not every German was a Nazi, just most of them apparently [edit: or at least passive to active supporters].
Here is some factual information from, of all places, a revisionist Web site. Still, the material is verifiable.

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THE FUHRER’S SWEEPING ELECTORAL VICTORIES

The election on July 31st 1932 was a victory for the National Socialists. They polled 13,574,000 votes and with 38% of the total votes cast legitimately and democratically became the largest Party in the Reichstag with 230 seats. The Social Democrats had 133 seats and the Communists 89. On January 30th, Adolf Hitler was appointed Chancellor of Germany.

At the polls of March, 5th, the NSDAP polled 17,277,180 votes; an increase of 5.5 million bringing their voting percentage up to 44% which when placed in coalition with the Nationalists led by Franz von Papen and Alfred Hugenberg who had polled 3,136,760 votes, showed an overwhelming majority of Germans had in free and open elections made their preference for German nationalism clear.

Immediately after his appointment as Chancellor, Adolf Hitler in his first appeal to the German nation on February 1st 1933 asked to be allowed just four years in order to carry out the task of national reconstruction. He repeated the same request when a few days later, when at a speech in the Berlin Sportpalast, he said:

ONE CHOICE – THE PEOPLES CHOICE

"During fourteen years the German nation has been at the mercy of decadent elements which have abused its confidence. During fourteen years those elements have done nothing but destroy, disintegrate and dissolve. Hence it is neither temerity nor presumption if, appearing before the nation today, I ask: German nation, give us four years time, after which you can arraign us before your tribunal and you can judge me! Allow me four years, and I swear to you, as truly as I have now undertaken my duties, I will depart. It is not for any reward or benefit that I have taken office, but only for your sake. It has been the greatest decision of my whole life.

I cannot rid myself of my faith in my people, nor lose the conviction that this people will resuscitate again one day. I cannot be severed from the love of a people that I know to be my own. And I nourish the conviction that the hour will come when millions of men who now curse us will take their stand behind us to welcome the new Reich, our common creation born of a painful and laborious struggle and an arduous triumph - a Reich which is the symbol of greatness, honour, strength, honesty and justice."

True to his word, on March 29th 1936, the German nation was given as promised the opportunity to express their approval or disapproval of the National Socialist state. It was an entirely free election without fear or intimidation with adequate provision made for monitoring by neutral observers.

THE GERMAN NATIONAL DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS MARCH 29th 1936
 
TOTAL QUALIFIED VOTES 45,453,691  
TOTAL VOTES CAST 45,001,489 99.0%
VOTES 'NO' OR INVALID 540,211  
VOTES FOR HITLER'S NSDAP 44,461,278

98.8%


Now Hitler did work to solidify power after 1932 [edit: thus the rise of the first concentration camps, and it was a proactive move from an employment standpoint to be an active supporter of the Nazi party during the 1930s], but there is plenty of primary source and secondary source research that seems to support the "free" nature [edit: general, free support based on Nazi "successes"] of the 1936 elections. Hitler was the man with the plan who was delivering the goods. Unfortunately, most of his supporters seem to have overlooked the passages in Mein Kampf where he talked about a colonial homeland in the East. If there was a victim of nazi-related propaganda, I would have to say it was the German people, and not the bomber crews.

Charon
« Last Edit: July 02, 2002, 11:30:06 AM by Charon »

Offline weazel

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« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2002, 10:44:49 AM »
"It's informing a stupid European person like good old judge Hortland that America is not evil, but that we are good."

The average American is good, but our current leadership fails the test, chimpy is the perfect example of "do as I say....not as I do."

With a toejamhead like him setting policy it's no wonder that anti-american sentiment is reaching new heights.

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2002, 10:46:35 AM »
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Originally posted by midnight Target
:eek: I agreed with Eagler!!:eek:

I think a swarm a locusts must be right around the corner.


Repent! :)

bout the only thing that unites our Country, if only for a few months, is a threat from outside its border

same for the world, we need some mean E.T.'s for us to get our act together globally :)
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Offline Eagler

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« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2002, 10:48:43 AM »
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Originally posted by weazel
"It's informing a stupid European person like good old judge Hortland that America is not evil, but that we are good."

The average American is good, but our current leadership fails the test, chimpy is the perfect example of "do as I say....not as I do."

With a toejamhead like him setting policy it's no wonder that anti-american sentiment is reaching new heights.


hehe , I think weazel is against the court, not sure

Go Chimpy!!!! :)
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Offline Wingnut_0

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« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2002, 12:06:19 PM »
No crime will be considered BEFORE July 1st,2002 when the court opened.  It's purpose is to investigate and launch criminal proceedings against countries that will not or does not have the means to prosecute.

I find it un-f@@@ing believable that we (American gov) feel we can demand justice for crimes against humanity in countries across the world when we will not hold ourselves to the same standard.

You can't read the future and in no way can you know that in the future some American wouldn't fall underneath this type of crime.  I can think of a couple 1st hand accounts (not mine mind you) from Vietnam where US authorities did not prosecute flagrant crimes.  

This our way or the highway is f@@@ing ridiculous and I for one hope our allies tell us, " Hey enough of your double standard roadkill, get out of our business".  You'll have what you want then.  A 1930's leave us alone America.  If anyone's a pompous prettythang it's ppl that subscribe to this type of belief that are the problem.

Why does history repeat itself? Because of dumbprettythanges that think, oh no that could never happen here, not us, we wouldn't do that and their blind eye opens one day after the fact to realize they created the dam problem.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2002, 01:07:19 PM by Wingnut_0 »

Offline Eagler

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a pompous ass
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2002, 12:37:22 PM »
"A 1930's leave us alone America. If anyone's a pompous bellybutton it's ppl that subscribe to this type of belief ..."

I'm a pompuss bellybutton by your definition


nice f-wording there too
:rolleyes:
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Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2002, 12:48:46 PM »
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It's purpose is to investigate and launch criminal proceedings against countries that will not or does not have the means to prosecute.


Thanks, then there is no need for us to participate.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2002, 01:03:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Udie
diddly you very much hortland. America wanted no part of that either.  Something about seeing people murdered and placed in camps and starved to death that makes us leap into action. learn to keep you own yard clean and maybe just maybe the good ole USofA can stop having to waste our lives cleaning up your messes.   Hmmm lets see what side of the planet did all the genocide happen last century?  Hmmm European side if I remember.
[/b]
Udie, if you wanted no part of Bosnia or Kosovo, then why did you come over here in the first place? I have one name for you: Madeleine Albright. As I tried to say, the EU did not want to get involved in Bosnia and Kosovo for various reasons. Just like the US does not want to get involved in the current India-Pakistan conflict. Apparently this is something you might not want to admit, nevertheless it is true.

And seriously Udie what kind of quote is this:
Something about seeing people murdered and placed in camps and starved to death that makes us leap into action.
Once again we return to the plight of the Native Americans. You should read up on your own history Udie. Hypocritical? Apparently not, after all it was so long ago. Well, what about the camps you guys built for your Japanese citizens in 42 was it? Could that qualify as being placed in a camp? I guess not huh?

So apparently Americans doesnt like seeing people get murdered or placed in camps. Yet America did not lift a finger when Rwanda lost its mind and killed itself a couple of years ago. How many killed was that? 1 000 000? Who went in there to try to stop the slaughter? The Belgians and the French. The US however, for some reason you might want to explain to me, chose to stay out of that one. As well as Zaire/Congo too.
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Yeah your a bunch of rutabagas who don't have a clue how to solve a problem without thousands/milliions of people dying.
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Well, perhaps our idea of problem solving is a bit more complicated than "send in the cruise missiles and blow them all up". The problem with the US and what you did in Bosnia and Kosovo was that you guys went in, gunz blazing. But (as usual) you really dont have a clue what to do after the smoke has cleared.  When you go in like that, you create lots of hate, lots of misery, and lots of damage. Then you sail back to your side of the pond and look for the next target. Meanwhile, we are stuck here with clearing out the mess you left behind.

Next time just leave us the /&%#¤ alone.
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 You know hortland you really are a pompus amazinhunk......

And you Udie, are a very nice gentleman. I thank you for your thoughtful inputs to this discussion, and I hope that you will some day let me buy you a beer.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2002, 01:13:34 PM by Hortlund »

Offline Wingnut_0

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« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2002, 01:06:11 PM »
Eagler I figured if Udie went their I might as well too.

And yes I think that describes you to a T.  Are you sure you aren't Jerry Falwell?  I say post a pic to prove it.
:D