Author Topic: 13mm vs. .50cal (Read 4167 times)

~Caligula~ · « **on:** August 04, 2001, 05:17:00 PM »

Does anybody have the specs of the RL german 13mm MG and the Browning .50cal MG?Muzzle velocity,destructive power in comparison, etc.
In AH the .50 cal seems to do lot more damage,I`m curious if it was the case in RL.
Right now if i run out of cannon shells in 109,I have to RTB ,coz the 13mm guns are good for nothing.
I engaged a N1K yesterday ,only 13mm ,he sucked really bad,so I was able to stay on he`s tail in a low turning fight.I started the fight with some 350 mg rounds,hit him problably 30-40 times.managed to get a fuel leak on him,but that`s it.
So I`m just curious if the 13mm was really so impotent. I tought it was because the 109 has only 2,and those US planes hit with at least 4 guns at once,but than I remembered Mitsu taking me out with .50 cals in he`s spit in one pass.So that can`t be it.

Animal · « **Reply #1 on:** August 04, 2001, 06:09:00 PM »

Not so.

When I am flying spitfire and run out of cannon ammo, it takes me much more lead to down a con with the 2x .50 than it takes me to kill them with the 2x 13mm on the G10.

The 13mm is VERY MUCH underrated by the people in AH. It is an excellent gun.

To find out by yourself, you can do some tests with someone.

batdog · « **Reply #2 on:** August 04, 2001, 06:20:00 PM »

Something to remember as well...the Niki is a tough plane. Also due to the on-line thing your hits might not be hits to him always...
There are many variables involved... I DO know the YAKS .50 equivelents are nasty.

xBAT

Pongo · « **Reply #3 on:** August 04, 2001, 06:57:00 PM »

Numbers have been posted before comparing the two. The mg131 is not ballistically as good as the 50. So its range in AH is far worse. Once a hit is obtained though,I think it would take a pretty dicerning eye to see a difference in damage effect.

Animal · « **Reply #4 on:** August 04, 2001, 07:15:00 PM »

Well, I dont know about range. With both guns I always open up below 300 yards, and at that distance, a 1 second burst to the wing (my usual target) the 13mm will usually break it off with a second or less.

Nashwan · « **Reply #5 on:** August 04, 2001, 08:23:00 PM »

MG 131 13 x 64B (34.6 g) 900 rpm 730 m/s 17 kg
Browning .50 M2 12.7 x 99 (48.5 g) 750 rpm 870 m/s 30 kg

Hooligan · « **Reply #6 on:** August 04, 2001, 10:08:00 PM »

The .50 cartridge is the 4th from the left. The Mg131 cartridge is the 5th from the left.

Incidentially the rates of fire for both guns in AH is approximately 800 round per minute.

Hooligan

raven 8 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 04, 2001, 10:46:00 PM »

so the.50 has more powder there for a faster muzzle velovity. the projectile looks pretty big on the13mm though.

which one is the farthest on he right? 30mm, 40mm?..........man.........whooosh

rav

flakbait · « **Reply #8 on:** August 04, 2001, 10:47:00 PM »

To save time fumbling around for exact calibers and looking at the above shot Hooligan posted.

-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think my maker wants to hear from me right now. I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von
Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond

AKcurly · « **Reply #9 on:** August 05, 2001, 06:14:00 AM »

Perhaps some of the confusion is caused by the effectiveness of the 6 50 cal rides. None of the 12.7mm or 13mm have more than 2 guns, right?

Try to take someone down with a spit9 using the 50s only. Hell, better yet, fly a ponyB and try to take someone down with 40 50s.

It's tough! I would wager a plane with 6 12.7mms or 6 13mm would be downright nasty!

curly

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #10 on:** August 05, 2001, 06:26:00 AM »

I agree curly, its almost pointless to compare the effectivness of US .50cal to German 13mm as all USAAF planes have at leat 2x as many .50cal as does any LW have 13mm.

What does bother me is the range factor. Granted the .50cal is more powerful and more aerodynamic but it hits out waaay to far and is lethal to 900-1000yards in AH. While the German gun is useless at over 200 yards. This matches the historical record of MG131 effective range quite well. But the AH .50cal is effective at nearly twice the historic effective range of 500yards as almost unanimously reported by most WWII USAAF pilots ive read.

Thats the only isssue I see with the guns.

Pyro · « **Reply #11 on:** August 05, 2001, 03:39:00 PM »

Here's a way to play with this to get a quick ballpark feel of the differences. Use this ballistic calculator: http://internet.cybermesa.com/~jbm/ballistics/traj/traj.html

In Tony Williams' book, Rapid Fire, there is a reprint of a trajectory chart for a Me 410. There are similar ones in a number of other books as well. Set up the same installation with regards to sightline, weapon offset, and zero range. Take the weight and muzzle velocity from that book and adjust BC to match trajectory. I'll make it easy for you.

Muzzle Velocity: 2592.0 ft/sec
Chronograph Distance: 0.000 feet
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.270
Drag Function: G1
Bullet Weight: 525 grains
Sight Height: 35.40 inches
Sight Offset: 0.00 inches
Wind Range Speed: 0 mph
Wind Vertical Speed: 0 mph
Wind Cross Speed: 0 mph
LOS Angle: 0 degrees
Cant Angle: 0 degrees
Target Speed: 0 mph
Target Angle: 90 degrees
Zero Range: 547 yards
Zero Height: 0 inches
Zero Offset: 0 inches
Temperature: 59.6 °F
Barometric Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Relative Humidity: 0.0 %
Altitude: 0 feet
Air Density: 100 % of Sea Level

Copy off the results and do it again for the .50 fired from the same installation. I posted a velocity chart in the AC forum awhile back. You can use that to adjust BC to match the chart since bullet weight and MV are known.

Muzzle Velocity: 2845.0 ft/sec
Chronograph Distance: 0.000 feet
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.700
Drag Function: G1
Bullet Weight: 708 grains
Sight Height: 35.40 inches
Sight Offset: 0.00 inches
Wind Range Speed: 0 mph
Wind Vertical Speed: 0 mph
Wind Cross Speed: 0 mph
LOS Angle: 0 degrees
Cant Angle: 0 degrees
Target Speed: 0 mph
Target Angle: 90 degrees
Zero Range: 547 yards
Zero Height: 0 inches
Zero Offset: 0 inches
Temperature: 59.6 °F
Barometric Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Relative Humidity: 0.0 %
Altitude: 0 feet
Air Density: 100 % of Sea Level

The results of this setup:

At 1000 yards, the .50 is pushing a 708 grain bullet at 1670 fps, generating 4382 ft-lbs of energy. It's taken 1.38 seconds to travel that distance and it's dropped 11.6 feet below the sightline.(I have an ammunition manual that gives a 1000 yard time of flight of 1.32 seconds with the 45" barrel. Using the same setup but plugging in the higher 2935 fps MV of the 45" barrel, I get 1.333 seconds at 1000 yards.)

At 1000 yards, the 131 is pushing a 525 grain bullet at 838 fps, generating 818 ft-lbs of energy. It's taken 2.37 seconds to travel that distance and it's dropped 42.6 feet below the sightline.

You can build a more precise model or quibble over the details, but that won't show the two rounds to be similar because they're not. The 131 has better performance in AH than the above comparison anyway. A lot better.

Frost · « **Reply #12 on:** August 05, 2001, 06:28:00 PM »

Either your an awesome BS artist or you know what your talking about

Seems pretty decisive to me. Thanks Pyro.

Midnight · « **Reply #13 on:** August 05, 2001, 09:07:00 PM »

So does that mean we American oppurtunist scum should be able to whine now that we have proof that you LuftWeinies have better guns than you really should?

THey whine for realism.. give them the crappy guns they so desire.

minus · « **Reply #14 on:** August 05, 2001, 11:15:00 PM »

pyro so that mean at closer range biger weith transport more kinetic energy , if your balistic computer have real military origin can be corect but dont think so

so at 200 yard deaceleration cant be 2 time low as at final range

can be right 50 caliber can travel much much biger distance but about aiming and gun platform stability at that distance hmmm that other story and the cumulative dmg the probablity to hit at same place where entereed first bulet and last is zero

will be very nice if ve can your oficial grap on LW guns drop becose now on FE it looks liek MG s are hiting some invisible barier after certain distance and begin slow down and fall down
that critical distance will be nice to se

about they who begin scream the Lw mg s are overmodeled :-)) hmm take your time nothing is perfect even pyro balistic computer

hard to beleve the us 50 caliber have te miracle balance with super destruction and at same time the 7.7 who are light and travel even faster from 50 caliber was not inaf efective so that miracle speed and lighter weight on 50 caliber is not a universal reponse , , be curios how u calculate dmg factor mean kinetic energy transfer ????? ar the LW planes made from stell ? why the paper shoting efect not working ?