Tuskegee airmen

[eskimo2]

It's been awhile since I've seen this movie, but I've seen it twice and I've read a book about these guys.  No American pilots were so unappreciated.  At a time when fighter pilots were worshiped, many people in power only wanted the Tuskegee airmen to fail, and for the "experiment" to end and be forgotten.  The thought that blacks could become heros, and do things that not all white soldiers could do was an unacceptable thought for many.

To get a glimpse of how difficult bomber escort was, try doing it in AH.  The objective is to protect the bombers, not to kill the bad guys going after your bombers.  Even if means giving up an advantageous position that could lead to a kill.  Sticking with the bombers no matter what is a very hard thing to do.

The scene in the movie where the Tuskegee pilot broke away and went after the enemy (in frustration) was an example of exactly what not to do.  This scene was the EXCEPTION to how the Tuskegee Airmen typically performed.  It was shown to illustrate how tempting it was for escort fighter pilots to follow their aggressive nature.  
More importantly, it was shown to illustrate how much of a consequence ONE mistake could be to these black airmen.  A white pilot making the same mistake would have possibly been called a hero, or perhaps given a posthumous medal for "fighting against the odds".  For the Tuskegee Airmen, however, this one mistake, by one pilot, almost ended the entire Tuskegee project.

Perhaps the most important theme in this movie was that the Tuskegee Airmen had to live and fly with perfect discipline, 100% of the time.  They were not given any slack.  Even their own leaders and supporters knew that any negative mole-hill of a mistake, could become a unit crushing mountain.
Another critical theme was that they had to perform at their best, knowing that they were largely unappreciated, often hated, second class citizens.

As for the quality of LW pilots on the Western front, do the math:  
* The LW had lost many experienced pilots by the time the US introduced the P-51D.
* German aircraft production was relatively huge.
* Fuel for the LW was becoming scarce.  
* The LW needed pilots desperately.

Lots of planes + not nearly enough experienced pilots + no fuel + no time = many poorly trained, inexperienced pilots.  

There were lots of good German pilots on all fronts.  But, as the war progressed, more and more LW pilots recieved grossly inadequate training.

And yes, I would love to see a movie about any of the great LW pilots.

eskimo

[Vulcan]

Hmmmm lemme see, if Hollywood does a LW Aces movie I'm not so sure it'd be a good thing.

Ya know somehow they're gonna weazel a love story into a la Pearl Harbour, and seeing grown men kissing each other in leather thongs is not everyones cup of tea.

[whgates3]

George Beurling got 25+ kills in 4 months at Malta extend that over 5 years = 375 (similar number to Hartmann).  Erich Hartmann got most for his kills on the eastern front, which, like Malta (& unlike the werstern front), was constant action.  However, Hartmann got (i think) all of his kills 1943 - May 1945, or in about 2.5 years...damn, now i forgot the point i was going to make.  interesting numbers, tho...

Also, the Tuskegee Red Tails will be remembered long after the Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney are forgotten, so there is justice eventually (nothing against the Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney, they provided - and possibly patronized - great escort service as well)

[funkedup]

Why would anybody want to make a film glorifying a bunch of Nazis?

[Hristo]

Who do you mean, funked ? Hitler, Goering, Stalin and MacCarthy are already portrayed in quite many movies, AFAIK.

OTOH, great pilots weren't even mentioned anywhere. Pilots whose record greatly surpassed record of all others.

Guenther Scheel, for instance, had best strike rate...he shot doen more planes than he flew sorties.

Hartmann - 352, enough said.

Galland - from Spain to Berlin, or Buenos Aires, if you want.

What about Sakai ? Was he a Nazi too ?

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by whgates3
George Beurling got 25+ kills in 4 months at Malta extend that over 5 years = 375 (similar number to Hartmann).  

Yeah, I dont see why anyone should having any problems counting like that. Hmm..let see, Marseille shot down 17 aircraft in one day, extend that over 5 years = 31 025 kills.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by funkedup
Why would anybody want to make a film glorifying a bunch of Nazis?

I see funked here needs to understand how capitalism works.

Short answer: to make money.

Now quit trolling and move along.

[Hristo]

Rall once said: "It was either wooden cross or Iron Cross".

That line alone might be a good start for a movie scenario.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Karnak

Marseille never got 17 in one day.  He claimed 17, but that is a far sight from actually getting them.  As it happens, British records show that they had less than 17 aircraft operating in the area that day and did not even lose all of them.

When you read about a pilot getting kills with 3 rounds of 7.92mm ammo, be very, very skeptical.

On September 1st 1942 Marseille down 17 allies planes in three sorties. His first encounter that day was with a P-40 which had attacked a flight of Stukas. It went down in flames rather quickly. Then six Spitfires acting as escort to Kittyhawks dropped down on Marseilles flight of Bf-109s. Marseille lowered his flaps and throttled back almost stalling his aircraft, causing the Spitfires to shoot past him. The last one got a full course meal from of Jochen's 20-mm canons and machine guns. The British fighter literally disintegrated in mid air. In the short skirmish which then transpired, another Spit was victimized by Marseille, as well as a second P-40 trying to escape on deck.

Times of victories: 08:28; 08:30; 08:33; 08:39.

On his second flight that morning, Jochen flew top cover for Ju-87s. They ran into big party of DAF fighters and bombers. Marseille with his wingman intercepted eight P-40s on their dive for Stukas, and allies planes formed a defensive circle soon after this. He shot down two of his opponents immediately and the circle broke up. As they scattered, Jochen knocked down three more. He took his sixth after short chase, with a very long deflection shot. Throughout all this, his wingman flew close cover. They both climbed up again only to spot another flight of unsuspecting Kittyhawks. Marseille approached alone and shot down his seventh. After turning home he came upon yet another P-40 trailing white smoke. It became his eighth in this flight and probably was his easiest victim.

Times of victories: 10:55; 10:56; 10:58; 10:59; 11:01; 11:02; 11:03; 11:05.

Eight aircraft in ten minutes! Back in the base, as soon as he opened the canopy of his 109, he learned that Feldmarschall Kesselring was visiting his unit. Upon reporting to Operations HQ tent, Marseille declared 12 enemy aircraft shot down. Kesselring inquired of him the number he shot himself, and Jochen replied accordingly: "Twelve, Sir". His supreme commander did not say a word. Later, he admitted to being astonished.

That was a very busy day for all pilots of the JG-27. After a meal and a short rest, Marseille departed as an escort to Ju-88s which were seeking to bomb British troops concentrations. The battle of Alam el Halfa was at its highest point. Fifteen P-40s attacked Junkers, which in turn were attacked by Marseille's pilots. A series of dogfights erupted which gradually brought fighting aircraft from 5,000 feet to almost ground level. In this aerial fracas the "Eagle of Africa" shot down another five P-40s.

Times of victories: 18:46; 18:47; 18:48; 18:49; 18:53.

That brought his daily tally to seventeen. That was a great deal of scrap production for one man! Understandably, there was a lot of celebrating with shnaps and egg flips that evening, in a tent set up as a cocktail bar by Marseille himself. The only problem was the fact that the German pilots did not stop the enemy bombers, which inflicted heavy loses on Afrika Korps.

Apparently, there is still a lot debating whether it really happened. Shooting seventeen aircraft in one day is certainly possible. Emil "Bully" Lang claimed eighteen victories in one day. They were achieved however on Russian front where opposition was much less potent, especially when mounted by lousy, poorly flown and maintained P-39s. Luftwaffe procedures were very strict when it came to confirmation of victories. To register one, pilot had to fill comprehensive victory report which was followed by combat report. To this, Gruppenkommandeur endorsement had to be attached. Then a report from Unteroffizier from air intelligence regiment was added. A report from a witness (or preferably two) completed the claim. There wasn't much room to overclaim, and the Luftwaffe was difficult to fool. It is worth noticing that in October 1941 long range nightfighting was abandoned, even though it resulted in many successful sorties over Britain. This happened mostly because it was impossible to confirm victories claimed by German Nachtjagd. Marseille's seventeen aircraft downed on September 1st was confirmed in Berlin.

It is well known fact that his tidy-minded armourers kept account of rounds expended for each sortie. That was used to calculate the amount of ammunition which Marseille needed for each kill. Combat reports analyzed in Berlin showed that, at the peak of his abilities, Marseille needed 15 shells per kill.

"Today I have experienced my hardest combat. But at the same it has been my most wonderful experience of comradeship in the air. We had combat in the morning, at first with forty Hurricanes and Curtis's, later some twenty Spitfires appeared from above. We were eight Messerschmitts in the midst of an incredible whirling mass of enemy fighters. I flew my 109 for my life, but although the superior strength of the enemy was overwhelming, not one of us shirked our duty, all turning like madmen. I worked with every gramme of my energy, and by the time we finished I was foaming at my mouth being utterly exhausted. Again and again we had enemy fighters on our tails. I was forced to dive three or four times, but every time I did pull up and rushed into turmoil. Once I seemed to have no escape; I had flown my 109 to the limit of its performance, but a Spitfire was still behind me. At last moment Marseille shot it down, fifty meters from my aircraft. I dived and pulled up. Seconds later I saw a Spitfire behind Marseille. I took very careful aim at the enemy, and Spit went down burning. At the end of that combat only me and Marseille were left at the scene. Each of us has three victories. At home we climbed out of our planes and were thoroughly exhausted. Marseille had bullet holes in his 109, and I had eleven hits in mine. We embraced each other, and stand like this. We were unable to speak. It was unforgettable moment."
Hans-Arnold "Fifi" Stahlschmidt (59 victories)

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Hristo
Who do you mean, funked ? Hitler, Goering, Stalin and MacCarthy are already portrayed in quite many movies, AFAIK.

I think the key word here is GLORIFYING.

[Nifty]

I doubt many Americans in the general public have the desire to see a movie about Hartmann or any other German ace.

[Hristo]

Like Hartmann had a choice. What would happen to him if he refused to fly for Fuhrer in 1943 in Third Reich ?

(use your imagination)

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Nifty
I doubt many Americans in the general public have the desire to see a movie about Hartmann or any other German ace.

And I guarantee that I could make such a movie and the people would come see it in droves. It is all about presentation. Throw in a good lovestory and you have a box office hit.

Just to give you an idea:
Hartmann is played by the latest Hollywood sweetheart. I'm thinking Matt Damon. His girl is played by the latest Hollywood babe. I'm thinking Denise Richards (but thats just me)

Hartmann painted a red heart with the name of his girl on his rides...girls love stuff like that. AND I think he got married at some point during the war (not sure though). Throw in a couple of Hartmann on R&R meets girl scenes, and the love part is pretty much set.  

---
Focus of the movie should be on the eastern front, preferably in the later stages of the war. You can create a nice "last stand at Alamo"-feeling there...Americans love that, and they dont have too much of a problem with seeing communists as the enemy.  

Hartmann flew with many very interesting characters, most notably Krupinsky and Grislawski. All these 3 men survived the war.

Grislawski was the one who traied Hartmann and he saved his life many times in the beginning. Here is a quote about him:
"Grislawski, a veteran from Hermann Graf’s 9. “Karaya” Staffel. Alfred Grislawski was a muscular son of a miner. Although he had refused to enter the Nazi Party – much under influence of his father, who still was a vehement anti-Nazi, he had scored large successes in the air war against the USSR. On 2 November 1942 he returned to base from his253rd combat flight with a report of one I-16 and one I-153 shot down, his 62nd and 63rd victories.

Grislawski was one of the toughest German fighter pilots. And he knew it. During combat missions he didn’t hesitate to “lighten his heart” whenever any of his comrades committed a mistake. Even his Gruppenkommandeur, Major Hubertus von Bonin, had his share of Grislawski’s “criticism”. Leutnant Hartmann was shocked as he once heard Grislawski addressing Major von Bonin in the R/T during a dogfight: "What the he** do you think you are doing? If you won’t listen to me you can kiss my ass!”

“I was to take responsability for the newcomer Erich Hartmann. I looked at him and thought: “Oh my God, what are they sending us now? What a baby!”

Krupinsky too was a real gem. Here is a quote about him:
...he was a "wild man" in the sky, and he picked Hartmann as his wingman - because all the NCO veterans refused to serve as his wingman. Krupinski never avoided any air combat, and on repeated occasions, he led Hartmann against Soviet aircraft formations from a terribly disadvantageous position. The story behind Krupinski was that he had served under Hptm. Johannes Steinhoff's harsh command in 1941, and Steinhoff had threatened to shift Krupinski to a reconnaissance unit if he didn't shape up as a fighter pilot. Krupinski was a notoriously bad gunner, and he made up for that by attacking the enemy on every possible occasion. It was sheer luck that he managed to survive the war. Flying together with Krupinski meant air combat on almost every mission.

Do you have any idea how much can be done with 3 characters like this? It would be so damn easy to make the public fall in love with all of them.

------------------
So, so far we have, a good love story, and a guaranteed happy ending. We have 3 good friends flying fighters and each one of these friends have a strong personality. These 3 friends are fighting against hopeless odds against vile communists.

----
ok, what else.
Make sure that the movie is 100% historically accurate when it comes to aircraft, and air combat...no one wants to see dogfights ala Pearl Harbor.

Downplay the side the German pilots were fighting for. Throw in lots of "I hate to do this, but I have to" or "Im fighting for Germany, not Hitler" -speeches. Here lots of guidance can be found in the movie "Gettysburg" and their portraits of the officers fighting for the South.  

Some stuff to be included:
Hartmann was once shot down and captured. On August 20th 1943, he was downed twice. On the second occasion, he went down in Soviet-held territory, and was captured, but managed to escape and made it back to his own lines.

Do you have any idea how much one can do with that episode?

Hartmann became a legend in so many ways. His aircraft was recognized and feared by the soviets. So Hartmann would let the most inexperienced pilot in his unit fly in his plane, while Hartmann flew as that pilots wingman. When the Soviets spotted Hartmanns plane, often they did not dare attack it, but went for the wingman instead...after which Hartmann shot them down.

Do you have any idea how much one can do with that?





As I said, give me the money, and I'll make a movie so damn great kids will line up to play Luftwaffe aces.

[Hristo]

I read somewhere about a certain poll among Americans. What would you rather be:

A. an SS officer in Eastern front
B. a Soviet soldier in Eastern front

You'd be quite surprised about the outcome. Who knows, maybe just cold war propaganda.

[Animal]

Originally posted by Hristo
I read somewhere about a certain poll among Americans. What would you rather be:

A. an SS officer in Eastern front
B. a Soviet soldier in Eastern front

You'd be quite surprised about the outcome. Who knows, maybe just cold war propaganda.

They probably didnt know what an SS officer was, hell youd be surprised how many people believe the Russians were the bad guys and the italians were part of the allies.

I know you would rather be the SS guy even though you wont admit it.