Tuskegee airmen

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by eskimo2

The Axis civilians were bombed and killed in order to END the war, a war that was started by the Axis.  
The Axis countries wanted to kill off or enslave the world population... this was evil at in its purist form.
The Allies wanted an end to this.  They were FORCED into the war in order to protect themselves, and to free those who were already enslaved.  

[/b]
Oh dear...I dont know where to start.

Ok, first, your version of basic historical facts seems to be a bit...biased.

Remember that the Soviet union was one of "the allies", and whatever they fought for, they saw no problem with enslaving millions of people. The Soviet union (or, one of the allies) ended up killing and enslaving many more of the world population than the Germans did...by your own logic, this must be an even purer form of evil.

Lets try this for starters... The ends does not justify the means. Meaning that the war in europe could have been ended in many ways, such as a massive bombardment of Germany using poison gas.  

The Allies had to chose the most efficient methods to bring the Axis countries to their knees.  Anything less would mean MORE Allied deaths.  Why should they put themselves at greater risk?

[/b]
See above. The ends does not justify the means

What difference does it make if a 14 year old German boy dies after being forced (or brainwashed) into joining the Nazi party and military, versus dying during a bombing raid?  The difference is, in the first circumstance he is given a gun, and poses a threat.

[/b]
Are you really saying that in your opinion, there is no difference between killing a soldier (a combatant) and a civilian (a non combatant)? Think before you answer here, especially in light of 9-11.  

Axis wartime industrial infrastructure, was not just Messerschmitt factories and oil refineries in Polesti, it was everywhere.  Almost all Axis citizens contributed to the Axis war waging might.  This does not make these citizens evil.  
It does not mean that they deserve to die.  
Killing them, however, may be an unfortunate necessity in order to end a war that was costing thousands of lives on both sides on a daily basis.

[/b]
That is irrellevant. Killing them is still a crime. See above regarding combatants and non-combatants.

[Animal]

Originally posted by Hortlund


Animal, Animal, Animal... Try to listen to classical music, apparently that has been known to stimulate IQ. Maybe Nath can give you some tips on good music.

We could sit here all night and discuss various cause and effect-relations. All of which would probably be very interesting on some philosophical level... Let me just ask this: If you are of the opinion that someone other than the one giving the actual order is responsible for the obliteration of Dresden, then why stop at Hitler? Why not go to the root causes of why Hitler came to power? Well, should we blame the versaille treaty (=France)? Or how about Hitlers parents?

And apparently you dont know all that much about how a German pilot was awarded a kill. But that was to be expected. Let me just say that it was harder for a German pilot to be awarded a kill than an allied pilot.  

And trust me, if I had the money, I could make a movie about Hartmann that would have kids lining up to play luftwaffe aces.

LOL!!!

You sound more retarded with every post. I have no idea where the music crap came from in relation to this thread, but I guess its some kind of idiotic crutch you use in your arguements to discredit what I wrote and make yourself seem more sophisticated. Maybe it was a cry-for-help to get Nath or some other person to come and help you out.
And the three Animal's for dramatic effect were hilarious.
My music background aside; you are a moron.

Let me just ask this: If you are of the opinion that someone other than the one giving the actual order is responsible for the obliteration of Dresden, then why stop at Hitler? Why not go to the root causes of why Hitler came to power? Well, should we blame the versaille treaty (=France)? Or how about Hitlers parents?

Oh, you are somehow trying to defend Hitler now! am I right?
The person who gave the order to bomb Dresden would have been living peacefuly at home with his family, if it was not for Hitler and the nutcases who followed his orders, and then, with defeat stamped on their foreheads, still refused to surrender and spare thousands of German lives. If you were alive during the war, there is no doubt you'd be one of these NAZI nutcases.

And apparently you dont know all that much about how a German pilot was awarded a kill. But that was to be expected. Let me just say that it was harder for a German pilot to be awarded a kill than an allied pilot.

Oh educamate us!
I was wrong! The German propagandists where fair, honest people whose mission was to enlighten the rest of the world on the prowess of the superior German super-soldiers!
And thanks for clearing out that it was harder for a German pilot to be awarded a kill.
It sure was! I mean, you said so! ON THE INTERNET!!!

And trust me, if I had the money, I could make a movie about Hartmann that would have kids lining up to play luftwaffe aces.

I doubt the rest of the youth in the modern era are as clueless and weakminded as the Hitler youth. Thankfully, you dont have the money to create your master work of propaganda, to turn the kids of the world into NAZI Luftwaffe pilot wannabes. Also thankfully, they are too busy dreaming of becoming rock stars, entrepreneurs, scientists, etc.
If your target audience is idiots like yourself, you dont need much effort to convince them that the Arian warrior is a genetically superior race, capable of killing several planes with a single 20mm round.

[Hortlund]

Why are you laughing at your own stupidity?

The "music crap", well there was a study made at some US university a couple of years ago that showed that students who listened to classical music during an IQ test performed better than students who listened to "normal" music.

Ok, although I get the sinking feeling that this will be another one of those classical "might just as well argue with a wall"-threads, I'll answer your ramblings.

Please answer this first: Is it your opinion that Hitler is responsible for every single event that took place during ww2  since "he started it"? Does that mean that there is no individual guilt for anyone else, since everyone else were forced into whatever situation they found themselves in by Hitler and his starting of ww2?

Before you answer that one, please take a minute or two and ponder the various consequences of your answer.

If you doubt my statement about the German kill-claims system, then perhaps you should try reading a book on the subject sometime. Instead of just sitting here and display a stunning combination of arrogance and ignorance. Might increase your chances of being taken seriously next time.

[AKSWulfe]

Why are you so hell bent on defending NAZI germany because they started a war and then got a few thousand tons of bombs dropped on their cities...

but the Japanese get 2 nukes, I don't see you crying foul for them, or giving us the uber l33t speech about fighting as underdogs.... 2 years after they started a war...

But no, the Germans were blonde hair, blue eye knights out to cleanse the world of the evil Jews and other "subhumans" that Hitler decided he hated because they were "inferior"... so we gots to be defendin' 'dem... und der uber LuftWaffen piloten out only to be like Richtoffen... with a dash of mass genocide.
-SW

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Why are you so hell bent on defending NAZI germany because they started a war and then got a few thousand tons of bombs dropped on their cities...

but the Japanese get 2 nukes, I don't see you crying foul for them, or giving us the uber l33t speech about fighting as underdogs.... 2 years after they started a war...

But no, the Germans were blonde hair, blue eye knights out to cleanse the world of the evil Jews and other "subhumans" that Hitler decided he hated because they were "inferior"... so we gots to be defendin' 'dem... und der uber LuftWaffen piloten out only to be like Richtoffen... with a dash of mass genocide.
-SW

If you take a look at what I have posted on the subject of Germany 1934-45 you will not find any defence for "NAZI Germany" (btw, the caps was a nice touch). You will find me arguing that not all Germans were nazis, that German soldiers were humans too, that German civilians were slaughtered, that not all Germans were evil to the core and all allies were good, that the allies committed crimes too.  

Apparently this provokes you enough to post what you just posted, with veiled insinuations that I am a revisionist or worse.

[Animal]

Why are you laughing at your own stupidity?

Actually, I am laughing at yours.
LOL <---- there, now I'm laughing at it again, for not realizing the obvious.

The "music crap", well there was a study made at some US university a couple of years ago that showed that students who listened to classical music during an IQ test performed better than students who listened to "normal" music.

No, the music crap was you trying to divert the conversation in an attempt to save face. And from my end its a beautiful example of your ignorance. You'd understand if you ever found out about my musical background But I'm not going to brag about that now, lets stick to the original subject.

Please answer this first: Is it your opinion that Hitler is responsible for every single event that took place during ww2 since "he started it"? Does that mean that there is no individual guilt for anyone else, since everyone else were forced into whatever situation they found themselves in by Hitler and his starting of ww2?

He was the one person on top who had the power to end the war and the suffering of his own people. And he didnt. He would rather see all of the people of Germany die rather than surrender. He said it himself, that if the invaders wanted Germany, all they would get was a wasteland.

So, the answer to your question is: YES. And it is not my opinion. Its a fact.

Before you answer that one, please take a minute or two and ponder the various consequences of your answer.

Oh, now I have to watch what I say? Is this some kind of threat? OH MY, LOL!!!

If you doubt my statement about the German kill-claims system, then perhaps you should try reading a book on the subject sometime. Instead of just sitting here and display a stunning combination of arrogance and ignorance. Might increase your chances of being taken seriously next time.

Taken seriously?
In other words, you believe everyone takes the garbage you type seriously?

You are a clueless retard, thats what you are.
Go educate yourself on Word War II history, open your eyes and realize that WWII German propaganda were outright lies, even modern Germans are ashamed of it all, and rightly so.

[AKSWulfe]

Veiled? toejam, I outright accused you of being a NAZI sympathizer/revisionist in the Aircraft and Vehicles forum.

And that's actually how you're supposed to write it... being that it's an abbreviation and all of the Nationalist Socialist (in German) party.

Not all Germans were NAZIs, true, but they got a bad leader and let him take the reigns... following "blindly" the whole time. I put blindly in quotes, because, well... there wasn't a damn civilian NAZI when Germany capitulated. Soldiers... well the prideful ones admitted to being NAZIs... the rest, well they feigned knowledge.

You keep saying there's no hard numbers for how many Germans died in Dresden... there ain't no hard numbers for how many of those Germans were actually NAZIs. Virtually every video that came out of the 3rd Reich featured thousands upon thousands of civilians standing along the side of roads watching their military roll down the streets. Two things those videos are never short of, Swastikas and blatant support of the NAZI party... the salute and everything.

Then, you go and think about it... hey, NAZI itself isn't that bad of a word... damn, Swastikas ain't really that bad either.... the killing of millions of Jews is what tainted those two words, and this was carried out by none other than Hitler and his minions. Civilians included, many of those f'ers turned in Jewish people to der fuhrer. Tell me those "civilians" weren't NAZIs... then tell me they didn't deserve to die alongside those NAZI soldiers... then tell me, how in the f*ck did virtually every Jewish person in hiding IN GERMAN CITIES knew that if they got caught and hauled away they would be exterminated... but somehow, the ever-so-innocent germans living in those cities didn't know.

Yes, there were probably a few civilians who helped Jews escape. Maybe even some officers in germany's armed services... but THOSE people were few and far between. The rest I'd venture a guess at saying, if they didn't know(about the concentration camps, and the rounding up of jews/blacks/etc wasn't to kill 'em)... they were lying.

Of course we'll never know... but attempting to make excuses for them, or trying to put the Allies down on their level... that's borderline revisionist/sympathizing.
-SW

[AKSWulfe]

Just some statistics on the Red Tails (Tuskegee Airmen)....

"When the war ended, the 332nd and the 99th had flown 1578 missions and more than 15,000 sorties. They had sent 450 pilots into combat, of whom 66, or more than one out of seven had given their lives.

Some other totals:

Planes destroyed or damaged in the air: 136
On the ground:                                         273
Barges and boats destroyed:                     40
Locomotives:                                             126
Rolling stock:(dunno what this is)              619
Trucks, cars:                                                87
And the statistic they were most proud of:
Friendly bombers lost to enemy fighters       0

It is easy to fall into the trap of emphasizing aerial victories, which the pilots themselves regarded as one of the less significant aspects of their job. Their mission was not a game in which both sides kept score. There was much more at stake. How many bombers and their crews were saved because the Red Tails were weaving protectively above them, warding off enemy fighters? The cost of the bombers and the training of their crews alone was incalculable. How many wives, parents, and children welcomed home men who had been spared death thanks to their red-tailed escorts?"

that excerpt is from the book "Red Tails, Black Wings" by John B. Holway. ISBN:1-881325-21-0 It's a VERY good book.

You think the LuftWaffe had it hard at any point? toejam, you need to read this book... then you'll know a struggle against outnumbered odds that are trying their damndest to guarantee you lose... the LuftWaffe had it easy!

EDIT: Oh, and Hortlund.. you think the LuftWaffe had the most rigorous way of getting credited with kills?

From the same book as above:
"The kills and damages we scored are probably many more than we have records for," Spanky Roberts said:

    If a plane wasn't clearly seen crashing or burning, or the pilot wasn't clearly seen jumping out, we didn't even try to claim it, because we knew we weren't going to get any credit for it. We were accused of falsifying figures and even pictures. That always seemed interesting to me that we did things to our cameras to make them reveal things that didn't happen. If we were so beastly smart, why did they think we weren't beastly good pilots too? We didn't develop the film."
-SW

[midnight Target]

dam Stevie, Maybe you oughta go back to defending that conservative trollop in the other thread.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Veiled? toejam, I outright accused you of being a NAZI sympathizer/revisionist in the Aircraft and Vehicles forum.

[/b]
Yeah, your mom must be so proud. I thought you took that back actually.

And that's actually how you're supposed to write it... being that it's an abbreviation and all of the Nationalist Socialist (in German) party.

[/b]
actually...The correct abbrevation would be NSDAP.

Not all Germans were NAZIs, true, but they got a bad leader and let him take the reigns... following "blindly" the whole time. I put blindly in quotes, because, well... there wasn't a damn civilian NAZI when Germany capitulated. Soldiers... well the prideful ones admitted to being NAZIs... the rest, well they feigned knowledge.

You keep saying there's no hard numbers for how many Germans died in Dresden... there ain't no hard numbers for how many of those Germans were actually NAZIs. Virtually every video that came out of the 3rd Reich featured thousands upon thousands of civilians standing along the side of roads watching their military roll down the streets. Two things those videos are never short of, Swastikas and blatant support of the NAZI party... the salute and everything.

Then, you go and think about it... hey, NAZI itself isn't that bad of a word... damn, Swastikas ain't really that bad either.... the killing of millions of Jews is what tainted those two words, and this was carried out by none other than Hitler and his minions.

[/b]
I agree.

Civilians included, many of those f'ers turned in Jewish people to der fuhrer. Tell me those "civilians" weren't NAZIs... then tell me they didn't deserve to die alongside those NAZI soldiers... then tell me, how in the f*ck did virtually every Jewish person in hiding IN GERMAN CITIES knew that if they got caught and hauled away they would be exterminated... but somehow, the ever-so-innocent germans living in those cities didn't know.

Yes, there were probably a few civilians who helped Jews escape. Maybe even some officers in germany's armed services... but THOSE people were few and far between. The rest I'd venture a guess at saying, if they didn't know(about the concentration camps, and the rounding up of jews/blacks/etc wasn't to kill 'em)... they were lying.

Of course we'll never know...

Key phrase there at the end of the quote. But it seems very important to you to sit here and guess.

but attempting to make excuses for them, or trying to put the Allies down on their level... that's borderline revisionist/sympathizing.

[/b]
Show me a quote from me where I have tried to make excuses for the Holocaust.  I am of the opinion though, that a crime will always be a crime regardless of the color of your uniform, but I have never said that what the western allies did were even remotely close to the holocaust. It still is a crime though.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Animal

So, the answer to your question is: YES. And it is not my opinion. Its a fact.

...

even modern Germans are ashamed of it all, and rightly so.

I cant be bothered with the rest. If your musical background is any good, you should probably focus on that instead, since you seem incapable of coherent thought. (my guess is that you play a squeaking banjo)

ANYWAY

So in your opinion, people should walk around feeling ashamed for what now dead people did before they were born?

and

Hitler was responsible for Pearl Harbor. Himmler on the other hand was not responsible at all for the Holocaust...even though he gave the orders (since everything was Hitlers fault...remember what I wrote there about individual guilt?)

yeah...well thanks for trying anyway, back to the banjo now...run along.

[AKSWulfe]

Yeah, your mom must be so proud.

Hmm, well Sweden must be proud of you for sticking up for their values. Stay the hell out of a war, declare neutrality, get buddy buddy with a neighboring nation practicing mass genocide and basically all of the evil you could ever imagine, then happily accept the gold, and jewels, from the very same people that this genocide is being carried out against in return for steel and other materials that would be used for war.

Ah yes, so proud.

I thought you took that back actually.

Nope... everytime you post you just reinforce my opinion. Always attempting to make criminals out of the Allies while in turn giving the LuftWaffe pilots hand jobs because they were so super. You show me a war that's civilized, and I'll concede that bombing civilians is a crime. AFAIK, no LuftWaffe bomber crews were put on trial in Geneva after WWII for bombing civilians... and they were the first to perfect it in practice.. hmmm.

Key phrase there at the end of the quote. But it seems very important to you to sit here and guess.

Likewise for you. Although, I have actually seen videos of massive parades in support of Hitler and the NAZI party with what must be millions of German civilians lined up on either side of the road with a prideful NAZI salute. You can't say that you've seen footage of millions of German citizens dying during the Dresden raids. I wonder how many of these poor civilians turned in Jews so they could live a richer lifestyle? I wonder how many knew about the concentration camps and other attrocities, but still feigned knowledge and continued to follow Hitler?

Atleast the Allies stopped that sick diddly and all of his cohorts, whether they admitted to it or not...

War is toejamty, war is hell... war is not civilized. War crimes happen all the time, but for the most part the only people punished for war crimes after WWII were SS units and high ranking officers for their contributions to the genocide campaign.
-SW

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by AKSWulfe
I thought you took that back actually.

Nope...

Then we are through talking.

[Animal]

I cant be bothered with the rest. If your musical background is any good, you should probably focus on that instead, since you seem incapable of coherent thought. (my guess is that you play a squeaking banjo)

And he keeps beating the music horse.
Arent you done proving you're a flaming retard? You cant be bothered with the original discussion, yet you bring up a completely unrelated and totally retarded argument.
I think you are running out of steam.

Please create another thread in wich we can discuss music, so I can also humilliate you there.

So in your opinion, people should walk around feeling ashamed for what now dead people did before they were born?

Ashamed as in not trying to justify what all those "dead people" did, as you are trying.

Hitler was responsible for Pearl Harbor. Himmler on the other hand was not responsible at all for the Holocaust...even though he gave the orders (since everything was Hitlers fault...remember what I wrote there about individual guilt?)

LOL <--- at your stupidity, once again.
Individual guilt? No, I dont blame Hitler alone fpr the war. I also blame the love muffines who followed him, including Himmler.
Now its my turn to ask questions:

Do you believe the Allies would have bombed Dresden anyways if Hitler had surrendered when he lost the war years before Berlin was taken?

Why do you think his own Generals were trying to kill him?
With him gone, the bloodshed would have ended. Its that simple.

Yet the nutcases from the SS protected his life like zealots. The same way you try to defend him and the NAZI cause here.

yeah...well thanks for trying anyway, back to the banjo now...run along.

You are welcome.
Never played a banjo, though I would gladly enjoy one than spend my time convincing myself that the NAZI's were righteous underdogs, who had feelings too  
Go back to daydreaming you were a Luftwaffe pilot serving your lovable Fuhrer.

[eskimo2]

Hortlund,

I have just lost all respect for you during this thread.
I can't believe that you are a judge.  I thought you guys were supposed to have common sense and a sense of right and wrong.  Too bad for Sweden I guess.

eskimo