Author Topic: Gameplay gone fer a ^&%$%$# IMO  (Read 2444 times)

Offline Toad

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Gameplay gone fer a ^&%$%$# IMO
« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2002, 06:27:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
toad... my point remains that your squad does not find the P40 to be a viable plane in the new map..  


The early war planes are frustrating because they are not viable options.    

lazs


Well, allow me to clarify a bit. Rude floated the idea of us all going P-40 long before the release. We chatted it over and despite misgivings on the part of much of the group it was decided we'd give it a try once the release came out. Emphasis here being that there was a large amount of hesitation about going to the P-40 long before the release.

After the release, we all flew it a while. Those that had misgivings prior to the actual experiment were indeed less than impressed, primarily due to the lack of overall speed and climbing ability compared to the Mustang.

Some didn't really mind and simply viewed it as another adjustment to make. I think I perhaps fit that category.

Bottom line is that those that were not that enthusiastic about switching OUT of the P-51 were the MOST enthusiastic about switching OUT of the P-40 and BACK into the P-51.

I don't really think the map had much to do with that.

 I think it was simply too much of an adjustment to expect, given all the things that 1.10 brought to the table in terms of new AH experiences and opportunities.

And, as far as "viability" of the early planes, I personally don't expect to find them anymore viable in the old maps that are re-entering the rotation.

As I view it, the basic problem with the early war planeset is, given the "normal" situation of multi v multi furballs, your only option is to fight to the last bullet and then die.  (Which doesn't bother me either. But I realize that makes a difference for some.)

You sure aren't running away when you are out of gas or ammo in a mixed planeset multli furball; well, unless they let you go.

There's simply too many aircraft than can easily run you down. Given that the guy chasing you has half a brain and can shoot, he can use his better climb and speed capabilities to kill you reasonably quickly.

Again, "new" map or old ones, I don't think it is the characteristics of the map that cause early war planes to be less than "viable".

I think it is the way the arena is set up; allowing 1945 aircraft to mix it up with 1939 aircraft. Perk system doesn't really deal with the problem, IMO... not that I'm a fan of the perk system either! The entire perk system doesn't alter my aircraft choices or the way I play in the arena one bit. It never has. Just me, I guess.
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Offline J_A_B

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Gameplay gone fer a ^&%$%$# IMO
« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2002, 06:39:29 PM »
Beet1e:

You will note that AH is not currently a WW2 game.  It uses WW2 equipment but that's all.  There was no Knight, Rook, or Bishop country in WW2 and they definetely weren't having a war with each other.  In addition, Bf-109's and Spitfires and Zekes didn't all fly for each country's airforces as they do in AH.  AH is not a WW2 game and I'd hate to see it become one.  I've got nothing against the people who DO want a WW2 game, but isn't there room for both types of gameplay (hint: multiple arenas)?  

You ask me why I'm in AH if I don't want to re-live WW2.  My answer is AH isn't a WW2 game right now.  I ask you (in jest)--If you want to re-live WW2, why not play THE dedicated WW2 game, WW2OL?

Also, I'm not an "anti-strat" guy.  One of my favorite types of missions, back in AirWarrior, was escorting strikes on the enemy aircraft factory.  The reason I don't do much strat-wise in AH is strat in AH is very, very weak.  Very few of the strategic targets have any noticable impact on the battle, hence there's no reason to strike them.  Strat in AH usually boils down to little more than "landgrabbing", which I DO NOT have an interest in.  As a result, most of my flights tend to be lone fighter sweep missions.  However, saying I am "non-strat" just because I don't take bases isn't quite accurate.  I suppose, if ya really wanted to nitpick, you could call me a "non-tactical" player :D

I also noticed that the old maps are back in rotation now.  HTC cares about its customers--that's why you don't see me cancelling my account in a huff when something I don't like comes up; I know HTC will fix it  :)

J_A_B

Offline CSDMMNT

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Gameplay gone fer a ^&%$%$# IMO
« Reply #62 on: July 17, 2002, 06:47:59 PM »
Posted this under another thread but it shoulda gone here.
_____________________________ _____________________

I like clouds, at least with the other maps rotating in clouds will come back during those particular maps ... I hope ... ya? clouds will be there?

Pizza map is okay but there are a lot of aspects I do not like.

Back door field hopping/grabbing is to easy.

Too many bases to cover with too few people most the time.

Some areas base altitude was kinda a bummer (launching at 8.5k).

The map itself ... a pizza ... or a peace sign. Can't really feel "immersed" when I look at the map personally. Such a perfect lil symetrical world.

No clouds

Terrain poorly blends (looking into the distance I see and exact square of ... sand).

Back to the map not giving that immersed feeling, lets talk water. Sueze canals anyone? sheesh. Moats anyone?

...

... But ... there are aspects I like about the map.

Canyons are cool.

CVs can basically reach all over, be in strange places.

Ground vehicle coverage and the vehicles access to general terrain all over is nice.

The single mountain between certain airfields is a fun "point of contention".


But the ndisles, baltic, mandolin ... I like those maps as well with many similar and many different pros and cons.


All in all, good to see them back, better to have map rotations than no rotation imho.


Guess I'm bored. Typed way more than I anticipated  

Cheerios,

Quix

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2002, 07:43:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SKurj
hehehe +) post my first whine, and am labelled for life as a complainer (i've complained abit about the latest version of AH (bombers, map) and thats it...)


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Offline Lizard3

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Gameplay gone fer a ^&%$%$# IMO
« Reply #64 on: July 17, 2002, 08:01:19 PM »
SKurj, is THIS why you've been mucking about so in the tech support forum? TG they added the old maps;)

BTW, the manable acks are very good anti-tank guns out to about 3.5 to 4k. Trust me.

Offline beet1e

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Gameplay gone fer a ^&%$%$# IMO
« Reply #65 on: July 18, 2002, 02:42:49 AM »
J_A_B,

I agree with everything you say.  What I should have said is the AH is a flight sim with a WW2 veneer. I don't want to relive WW2 either - those 7 hour missions we discussed earlier - and not wanting to relive WW2 in that way is why I don't much care for scenarios.

I take your point about the weakness of AH strat targets. "Strategy" is a fairly generic term, and what I meant by strategy in some recent raids was to keep the enemy occupied in one location while we grab one of his bases that we know he can't defend. The only game-strat element here is that things like vehicle hangars will stay down for 15 minutes, the acks for a little longer. I use the stopwatch function on my wristwatch to mark the time when the first target goes down, and can then advise my little helpers how much time they have left to get goon or M3 to capture.
Quote
HTC cares about its customers--that's why you don't see me cancelling my account in a huff when something I don't like comes up; I know HTC will fix it
Yep, I've always agreed with that too.

OK, so the old maps are back. One thing I learned about the player base with the pizza map is that furballs are very important to some. I remember when I used to furball (about four years ago) but I found I wanted to move on to better things. I want to be able to do base capture - without running up against a bunch of 109G10s waiting for me at 25K as I lumber along below with my 2x1000# bombs etc. I don't want to have to use the Mission Editor in order to organise a gangbang to win the base purely through numerical supremacy.

We have to find a middle way, and one in which the fighter jocks can do their thing, while those who want to capture fields by strategic mobilisation of their forces can do that if they wish. If I may draw upon my WB experience for a moment, about 2½ years ago I had an excellent tour of duty. I think I flew the F6F exclusively, as soon as the RPS enabled it. I flew it on jabo missions only, and did not seek furballs, and would get involved in a furball only to save my own base from being captured. In WB, you could fly low level without being seen, and if you could then bomb the radar at the target field, you could get to work on the rest of the field unseen. You would have to organise a ju52 troop plane to be in position for the field capture - I flew a bunch of those missions myself. During that tour, I got 428 kills and 175 deaths (mainly from acks, being blown up by own bomb, or being jumped by an enemy lying in wait overhead). The point being that all these kills were incidental to the overall mission. I did not do a -lazs- and go out looking for kills for their own sake to pad my score.

I hope that the reintroduction of the old maps does not mean we will go back to the old AH formula of furballs everywhere, gangbangs, meaningless strat, and the jabo guys facing an impossible task owing to the bardar and flashing map. Those features are OK if the bases are well spaced, but when you're attacking a base that turns out to be only a few minutes flight from the next one, any jabo mission ends up being a suicide flight because of the LA7 swarm that ups from that nearest base and comes to kill you.

The pizza map was good for me because it allowed me to do some field captures without a Fariz-style mission in which 40 tiffies, 15 LANCs, 25 B17s, P38s and Spits are called for.

I spoke out about the Mission Editor and bardar a few weeks ago. I was disappointed (but not surprised) not to get a response from HTC about it.  They have listened to the guys who don't like pizza. Now, I hope they'll listen to the guys who don't like furballs and gangbangs.

Offline NUTTZ

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« Reply #66 on: July 18, 2002, 03:12:25 AM »
#1) I did that in tunisia, I used 2 towns with 1 maproom to make it harder to capture at key fields.

You can add as many mannable acks as you want at a field.


NUTTZ


Quote
Originally posted by AKcurly


#1)  Increase the number of buildings and include 3-4 mannable ack (positioned at the top of a building .)  That'll slow the milk runs down.

#5) 1000+ players won't help a bit, Skurj ... you know that.  They'll just increase the size of the map.  Bandwidth dude.

Personally, I would like to see the base capture model enhanced.  Make changes to the town so that a base capture requires at least 2-3 buffs collapsing the town.  Perhaps a group of osties accompanied by a group of planes would serve as well.

If HTC will add 3-4 mannable and elevated 40mm at the towns and increase the number of buildings, I suspect "milk running" would come to a screeching halt.  Ever watch a single plane attack a zone's city? :)   It can be done (killing city ack), but it's tough.

curly

Offline Vortex

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Gameplay gone fer a ^&%$%$# IMO
« Reply #67 on: July 18, 2002, 07:14:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wlfgng
roflmao

cancelling accounts because they don't like the map ??

lol     and go where ?

maps come and go.  Everyone whines about wanting new stuff but are impatient as hell when it doesn't work out right away.
you whiners ever try 'fixing' the problem yourselves ?

and if you leave AH ... where ya' gonna' go that's better ?

nowhere


Er, if the map causes your enjoyment of the game to go into the toilet, and as a result you don't log in anymore, why would you keep an account going? If you want to give money away there's more worthy charities out there than HTC, no?

...and if you pay me to do it, then sure, I'll look at fixing stuff. Otherwise there's not a snowflakes chance in hell that I'm going to pay for something and at the same time be fixing it too.

Oh, and you don't really need to "go" anywhere. There's an entire planet out there with non-computer generated people, and animals, and plants and stuff. Its really cool getting out amongst them too. Give it a try sometime.
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #68 on: July 18, 2002, 08:22:07 AM »
beetle... correct my spelling etc. if it makes you happyu but.....   you have completely misunderstood and misinterpreted my statement.   The smaller arenas are not a crutch unless you consider finding fights that are of equal numbers a "crutch"   the pizza map is the real crutch..  the talentless can milkrun with impunity.  the cowardly can hide behind "organization".    Gangbanging is the real word for srtat and organization in the pizza map.    I don't care about my K/D much but I care about good fights...melees if you will.   gangbanging (missuns) is not fun... I don't like fighting for scraps or fighting ground vehicles.   Getting slaughtered (base defense agains said cowardly strat potatos) is not fun.

And in defense of jab (although he is doing fine himself).... Re-creating WWII and recreating WWII aircraft are two different things.  The former is doomed to boredom and inaction and lopsidedness (we all read the book).   The latter is an exercise in "what if" that even the real pilots of WWII practised (dogfiting against each other) and is endless in it's variety.   After a few years a lot of players become so insecure and vain that they "move on" from furballs tho.   They imagine that they have some great talent that is not being showcased by being beaten by the occassional newbie.

toad...I guess we are saying the same thing.   the map is for fast late planes and milkrunners.
lazs

"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am stating that I to could find lots of "fights" if I was willing to get slaughtered. Even at the worst odds I could manage to kill something before I died. That is not the kind of fight I enjoy.
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(I took the liberty of correcting the one punctuation and two spelling errors, and improper pluralisation)

Well, that pretty much says it all. You don't like the arena because it's not what you're used to. Your k/d might sink to 1-1 (worst case scenario), were you to go looking for a fight in here. You're pretty much admitting that you used the setup of the 1.09 maps and terrains as a crutch, to provide yourself with preferential logistics to create a situation in which you could win. And do you know what? That's not far off how I would define the concept of Gaming the Game.


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Offline Rude

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« Reply #69 on: July 18, 2002, 09:02:39 AM »
Ahhh....feel the love.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #70 on: July 18, 2002, 09:11:36 AM »
Lazs,

The only thing that's more full of toejam than a Christmas turkey is two Christmas turkeys, and you. What's all this crap about milkrunning undefended bases? If the bases were undefended, it's only because the opposition cannot read a map. Good Grief, there are enough clues that a base is being attacked. For crying out loud, you have
  • dots on the radar, showing inbound enemy.
  • Bardar.
  • Yankee's dulcet tones - Base under attack.
  • You even have that warning siren.
  • You also have the text buffer, through which an observer at the field can give a sitrep.
  • voice comms.
But this, it seems, is not enough. You want furballs, and you want them to be on your terms. You want a situation that is conducive to furballing but not to field captures. And you'll stop at nothing to get it.

As for not wanting to recreate WW2, fair enough. But your "what if" scenario is purely speculative, because by the time we get to that scenario, the parameters are so far skewed in your favour that the results are meaningless.

I mentioned that F6F tod I flew in WB a few years ago. WB got ruined by the WW2A. There was no point in attempting field capture if you were on the side of the underdog (late war Axis). So I switched to moonlighting with the Scanian Griffins, flying 190s in hunting sorties. Not gangbangs, but hunts. I would finish a Tod with a k/d better than 5/1 with those guys, and streaks in the 20s- I think even you would be proud of that. And I did that because the competitive jabo raids died with the introduction of the WW2A (with idiotic RPS and sideswitching).
Quote
After a few years a lot of players become so insecure and vain that they "move on" from furballs tho. They imagine that they have some great talent that is not being showcased by being beaten by the occassional newbie.
Gawd, that third Christmas turkey just walked in. Lazs, I hope your firearms are not loaded when you write this crap. I worry for your safety. Besides, it's a moot point. I began WB as a furballer just like you - in fact WITH you, then went to jabo, then to bombers, and then to that 190 stuff with the Griffins.

Lazs, earlier you very kindly explained to me what a handgun is, and being a naive Brit, that was much appreciated. Now I need you to do something else for me. The maps have been changed back to the furball/gangbang versions for your benefit. Could you please tell me what a "Quarter" is? When I came to play the new Lazs oriented version of AH, a popup window appeared which said "Please insert Quarter in slot".  :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: July 18, 2002, 10:47:16 AM by beet1e »

Offline aac

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« Reply #71 on: July 18, 2002, 10:23:47 AM »
DON'T  Let Skurj get anywhere around your six when he is flying that P40  he will kill your arse, quick and often.  SALUTE  SKURJ,  me and AA101 tried our best to shoot your butttttttt however you know the results.   Skurj 4   us-uns 0

Offline runny

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« Reply #72 on: July 18, 2002, 10:57:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e

 I remember when I used to furball (about four years ago) but I found I wanted to move on to better things.


You know, whenever you get on this topic, I can't help but think that you're casting what is essentially a matter of taste as a matter of maturity, and that as a result, you're needlessly insulting part of your audience.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #73 on: July 18, 2002, 11:19:20 AM »
Hi there, Pbirmingham. How's life in the Chicago area?
You should not be offended. When I said I moved on to better things, for me they were better things. For you, furballing is a better thing. This whole debate is about which is better/more realistic. If you can't stand the heat, then stay out of the kitchen.

Offline Morgoth

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Gameplay gone fer a ^&%$%$# IMO
« Reply #74 on: July 18, 2002, 11:20:27 AM »
Maybe the problem is you're using the wrong sauce. Try this: