Gameplay gone fer a ^&%$%$# IMO

[lazs2]

curly... there is a fifth option that is a direct result of the pizza map and that is "seek areas that have no population or defenders".   In the smaller maps you could do that but not as easily and... certainly, not for too many fields (you ran out of undefended fields).   In pizza land you can milkrun for hours and never see another plane that is a threat.

that would make the term "milkrun" a very accurate description of what many are doing in pizzaland.
lazs

[AKIron]

Originally posted by lazs2
curly... there is a fifth option that is a direct result of the pizza map and that is "seek areas that have no population or defenders".   In the smaller maps you could do that but not as easily and... certainly, not for too many fields (you ran out of undefended fields).   In pizza land you can milkrun for hours and never see another plane that is a threat.

that would make the term "milkrun" a very accurate description of what many are doing in pizzaland.
lazs

And why exactly is that a problem for you lazs?

[AKcurly]

Originally posted by lazs2
curly... there is a fifth option that is a direct result of the pizza map and that is "seek areas that have no population or defenders".   In the smaller maps you could do that but not as easily and... certainly, not for too many fields (you ran out of undefended fields).   In pizza land you can milkrun for hours and never see another plane that is a threat.

that would make the term "milkrun" a very accurate description of what many are doing in pizzaland.
lazs

Thought I had it covered under "Seek areas which are lightly defended."  

I don't see why "milkrun" by your definition is a problem.  Heck, ignore them.  If you ignore them, they'll capture a few fields.  Eventually, they'll become a problem and attract a serious amount of attention or they'll find something else to entertain them and stop the milkrunning.

Either you enjoy thwarting milkrunners or you don't.  If you do, by all means go for it.  If you don't, ignore them.  They won't hurt your country.

Lazs, shouldn't you do what you enjoy and not worry about what others are doing?  It's should be no skin off your nose if squad xyz is milkrunning while you're enjoying a furball.  Eventually, a furball will develope around the milkrunners and then you CAN enjoy the festivities.

Lazs, you seem to enjoy stoking the fur in the wrong direction.  I would have guessed that you would enjoy getting in a manned ack and watch the GVs creep in.  When they get to 4k, kill them.  They usually blame it on rocks.

curly

[beet1e]

Lazs!

"how will my Hog do against this P47 or Mustang?" "how will my mustang do against this spit?"

The second question is moot because you never fly a Mustang. I’ve just checked your stats, and the only plane you ever fly is the F4U, though I think you may have had a go in an FM2, and come to grief. So you want to know how your hog will do against a Thunderbolt or Mustang? Fine, but surely you have found the answer by now? I mean, why go on doing your analysis year after year, assuming you’re telling me the whole truth? Even when you do your analysis, what do your results prove? Not much. Many of your victims could be experimenting with a different plane, much as I do myself. One of the problems with that is forgetting that the plane you're in now might not be able to do the things you did in the plane you were flying a few minutes ago. I lost two Thunderbolts like that last night – dived down to save a buddy, but was too close to the ground. Could have got away with it in the 190A5! If you are so interested in the relative performance of different aircraft and you're not afraid of being killed, why don’t you fly those other aircraft yourself?  That’s one reason I fly different planes. I’ll fly something that just whacked me, just to see what it can and cannot do. Were you to do the same, your analysis might be much more objective. The fact is that while I don’t think you’re telling me porkies, I don’t think you’re being entirely honest either, by which I mean you’re leaving out the real reason why you do what you do.

One of the reasons I started flying the D30 Thunderbolt variant is because I wanted to explore its capabilities as a jabo plane. I now know that fully loaded (2x1000#, 1x500#, 10 rockets), I can destroy a vehicle field hangar, both acks (5 rockets apiece), and a lurking GV with the remaining 500# bomb. I also found that I could flatten an airfield town single handed with that fully loaded plane. I enjoyed making that analysis, and capturing three fields into the bargain, but you simply poured scorn on it. For you to say that you're interested to see how this plane will do against that plane etc., but then to be scornful towards me when I do my analysis is to belie the reasoning behind why you do what you do. (Enter Christmas Turkey #4)

I hope you’re happy now that you’ve got your furball/gangbang/vulchfest/GtG maps back. I shall be making a separate thread about this, and I invite you to flame me

Last night, there was nothing much to do but furball, furball, furball, vulch, gangbang and more furball. I got rather tired and was losing concentration – that’s why I lost that second Thunderbolt. But I had a few good furball sorties, but the P47 is no furball animal!  I dedicated one sortie to you, my friend.

[Vortex]

Originally posted by AKcurly


This has nothing to do with Skurj, but he just used the word "milkrunning" and I would like a clarification.

What are reasonable activities in AH?  Well, you can 1) seek areas dense in enemy aircraft, 2) seek areas which aren't so dense, 3) try to capture bases which can't be captured (see #1), or 4) seek areas which are lightly defended.

#1 is called furballing and if you do that, folks make fun of you;  #4 I guess is called milkrunning and if you do that, people curse you.  If you do #2), then your presence turns it into #1.  #3 doesn't make sense.  Hell, I guess I might as well not login.



curly

I think a good gaming environment channels play down certain paths. Take whatever game you like; sim, RPG, FPS...they all do it. The map is the game space. It, by default, must subtly or forcibly direct the way you play. The assumption here is that it directs your play down some pre-defined paths that the designers have established as "acceptible" or even "preferred" modes of play. Every game must do this, set those targets, and keep them as "checks" against every change made.

In a nutshell that's what we're talking about here, and its exactly why the map is so important in a game like AH. It is the focal point...it directs gameplay. Does that mean forcing people to play a certain way is bad? Depends how you look at it because its happening already, and always has, and always will. Its a core function of game design. The question here is _what_ makes sense for a game like this? And that's a big reason why the pizza map caused many folks to speak up...it DID change the play parameters in many respects. For good or bad would depend on what side of the fence you sat, but gameplay took a fundamental shift on several fronts with that map.

To use an example for milkrunning. This is something that you used to see in CT a lot. It was a result of using to large a map for to few players (exactly what happens with the pizza map). The minute you incorporate that type of game space a good portion of the space itself becomes irrelevant to the player. The game environment, in an online sim anyway, must always strive to force a balance between the ability to act effectively on the offense and defense (in whatever capacity that the game allows for). That makes sense too as you simply can't channel interactions effectively with 100 sectors available bt only 10 people online.

In such an environment milkrunning is more frequent. It now _becomes_ a common form of gameplay. Note: it _wasn't_ before due to the fact that the map size/population provided a check against such activities. It wasn't impossible, but it also wasn't likely to go unchecked. That goes out the window with the pizza map. This is where I think folks like lazs and Skurj are bang on. I hate putting words in peoples' mouth (so correct me if I'm wrong guys), but as I see it its not at all an issue of them telling others _how_ to play. Quite the contrary, its a case of them taking issue with a fundamental shift in the _gameplay_ parameters. Both from the developers and customers pov alike expectations of a continuation of a stable play environment need to be maintained. That didn't happen with the pizza map. Quite the contrary...it went right out the window.

[lazs2]

ak's... i have no problem with people hitting undefended fields but that is different than "lightly defended" as was stated.   If that is what they want to do then so be it.  I think they are just bored tho.

beetle.   i fly a mediocre plane in a mediocre manner.   I have fought just about every plane in the set with it and it is fun to do... I have by no means fought every combination of planes and fought with every combinations of planes.    I have flown 109's and pee 51's and lags and tiffies and yaks.  I didn't like em much cause they didn't suit me or the way I fly in the arena or I felt they gave me too much of and advantage or disadvantage.   The FM2 is too slow for the pizza map but i did try it from a badly capped cv with disastrous results... the guys with brains just B & Zed me to death... I couldn't dodge 5 v 1 numbers for long especially if they were willing to die in the ack... plus I'm not that good.  I wouldn't have done any better in a hog.   Despite your feelings on the matter I feel I am still learning things and.... I like seeing how my teamates (with or without my help) do in and against a variety of planes.   Certainly the lack of variety and staleness of allied vs axis would/does become boring and predictable very quicky.

now... if we had an early war area... I would love to fly early war planes against their peers.  

i also don't understand why there was "nothing to do but furball" since when I looked at the map the greatest portion of it was deserted.   You could have milkrun a bunch of fields.    I think what it boils down to is that with the huge map... the fights are so spread out and boring that people say "why not, nothing else to do" when a milkrun "missun" is "organized".... In the small maps there is so many good fights going on that people say "don't bother me I'm busy" to "missuns"

Oh... and I hope that you arent offended but i didn't dedicate any sorties to you... was busy.
lazs

[lazs2]

beetle... (finaly figured out the "l" is a one)... I think the basic problem we have with each other is that we play different.   You have a kills per time this tour of 1.5...  you averaged around 4 in the old maps.  Me, and the guys i know get REAL bored if our kills per hour drop below about 6   I prefer 7 or 8.   I also get a lot of assists that add to the action.   I want to be fighting someone.   you do not.

now maybe.... my kills per hour are more than a lot of guys need to stay happy but... I guarentee that very few would be happy with your 1.5 for the big map.    I am curious.... how do you die so much when you take so long to kill someone?    And.... don't get too heavy on the stereotype.... I am killed a whole lot by GV's and ack.. not quite "furball only".

When someone who get's 1.5 kills per hour in the pizza map goes on about how it is easy to find furballs or even action... I think you can see where the problem lies?
lazs

[Widewing]

Originally posted by lazs2
curly... there is a fifth option that is a direct result of the pizza map and that is "seek areas that have no population or defenders".   In the smaller maps you could do that but not as easily and... certainly, not for too many fields (you ran out of undefended fields).   In pizza land you can milkrun for hours and never see another plane that is a threat.

that would make the term "milkrun" a very accurate description of what many are doing in pizzaland.
lazs

I found that quite a few guys were doing "milk runs" to the various Vehicle Bases of the outer ring (AKDesert map) simply (I think) to pad their attack scores. So, I started flying a P-51, Tempest or F4U-4 out there at 15k and was generating plenty of small fights. Typically, 1 v 1, 1 v 2 and even a few 1 v 3 situations occurred. However, having a fast fighter with speed and altitude negated any advantage in numbers. Moreover, all of these were Jabo types, usually heavy and easy marks. Well, after getting smacked a few times on what they thought were risk-free milk runs, they stopped coming. However, just do something else for an hour or so and some other guys will eventually try the same thing, and likewise, I was waiting for them too. Indeed, that outer ring was "cherry-picker" heaven.  Some of those bases where so far from friendly airfields that I would sometimes land out in the desert and takeoff when the base icon started flashing. It was sort of like doing the GV thing, waiting patiently for the attack you know will eventually come.

My regards,

Widewing

[popeye]

I found defending the pizza V bases fun too.  Though I was in an FM2, looking for fun fights in the canyons, not just padding my score.  Kill an M3 or two, and they'd usually come back in fighters.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by popeye
I found defending the pizza V bases fun too.  Though I was in an FM2, looking for fun fights in the canyons, not just padding my score.  Kill an M3 or two, and they'd usually come back in fighters.

Yeah, FM-2 is a good ride for canyon fighting... Won't take a perk ride down there though, not even a Mustang. I have, however, taken my 109F into the canyons. It turns as good or better than SpitIX and has the climbing ability to get out in a hurry. When I see something like a P-47 or 190A-8 low in a canyon, I know it will have a short violent life should he get boxed in.

My regards,

Widewing

[beet1e]

Lazs!

I am unclear about what you are inferring by asking why I'm dying so much.  Given that you express an interest in the spelling of my game ID, I assume that you went to check my score/stats. This ToD, much of what I have done on the pizza map involved driving GVs. I know that doesn't interest you much, but let me explain something. Some guys know how to aim the Panzer turret as to kill an Ostwind or another Panzer with a single ping. They will sit up on a sand dune, turret aimed at the VH spawn point. The moment you spawn, Ping! - you're dead. I tried a number of times to spawn against one of these guys, but he zapped me every time. That's when I realised that some air power was needed - hence the P47 etc.

As for dying in planes - well yes, I do that sometimes, and although I'm no hotshot, I do OK sometimes. As you can see from these stats - which is how I like to view them - I have a 6/1 k/d in the F4U-1D, 7/1 in the Spit IX, 4½/1 in the P47D30, 3¾/1 in the 190A5. I'm happy with that. Does this answer your question? By the way, I have no idea of my k/t, neither do I care. For me, it's a meaningless stat.

Well Lazs, I think we finally ran out of things to argue about. It's been fun. I respect you for not flying an uberplane all the time.

[lazs2]

I guess I am saying that in fighter sorties you have 1.44 kills per hour and a K/D of 0.666/1.   I only fly fighter sorties so that is all that I can compare to.    It also appears that you flew very few fighter sorties in the pizza map.    When someone is telling me about gameplay or action or furballing.... i like to look at their stats.  Often.... the problem lies in the fact that we enjoy different things.   That is the case here i believe.
lazs