New bombers......

[hazed-]

I dont know if im mistaken here but bombers seem to be very different in durablilty when in a formation.

Basically i have been killed in single passes almost every time im in a formation.the plane comes in fires, pop goes one of your bombers almost immediately.This seem to happen with all bomber types too.

I was hoping 1.10 would introduce the following features

MORE durable bombers able to take more hits.
Less powerfull guns (or effective range) as there was to be 3 or more times the number firing with formations
Wider spread damage through the use of said formations
A way of bombing that required a skill to get good at.

the reasons i hoped this?

well with more durable bombers this would mean you have much less occourance of 'long flights only to be killed in seconds by 1 burst', which i have to say, happened a lot when i flew ju88s. (although on several occations i did take enormous ammounts of damage and survive there seemed no pattern to this and you could never be sure you was going to survive any attack even if attacked by non cannon armed planes)
with less powerfull guns you wouldnt be able to start shooting at 1.4k like you can now on a B17 (i often take pot shots at these distances and ive taken wings/engines/tails off with a few flashes of hits) and again it would be less frustrating on the other side of the coin as a fighter pilot(you too wouldnt find yourself dead at 1.4k from a small burst,also annoying if youve read 'combat crew' by john comer this simply wasnt how it happened)Please remember I play on both sides of this described scenario with fighters and bombers and their interaction and i no more want to see super buffs than i do non combat WW2 aircraft or to see fighters enjoyment affected to appease a lazy player who likes to fly a bomber and want the game changed to suit his enjoyment.I just want to enjoy flying and avoid frustration.
Widerspread damage i think could be solved if we could 'open out'
the width of the formations  bit.As it is a formation doesnt help much if your No. 1 bomber misses. The blast radius on the present bombs is so small that the other 2 sets of bombs from wingmen land,explode and miss just like the lead bombers ordinance.I think that if you make the wingmen drop even a few hundred yards wider it would mean you could finally use salvo bombing with more success. Given that using the new bombsite we invariably miss with 90% of our bombs.Frustrated we begin to resent the difficulty.If we missed what we aimed for but still hit a few things nearby it is a LOT more encouraging.Could we please, at least whilst the bombing is being learnt have a wider formation? we could always change it back when people start to get rediculously accurate again(will they ever? hehe)
A way of bombing involving skill? the new sight? well at first i thought it was a fantastic introduction and, after missing my bombing and then, doing one of the calibration steps a little more accurately (or something:)), i seemed(!) to get better and better. BUT then when i was doing exactly the same steps even at the same targets and getting huge variences in my accuracy I have started to become more and more frustrated with it.This seemingly unavoidable result has really changed my mind about this particular method of sight calibration.
If the varying results were due to a gusting wind then fine id accept it but AH doesnt have wind change.It stays constant so its not as much a factor as in real life.
if the varying results were due to flying and bombing at different speeds then fair enough we'd have to go slower to drop accurately but this doesnt help either.Ive bombed at steady 190 or 200 mph and still i get differing impact points from hundreds of yards short to hundreds of yards long.
What it seems to be due to is how accurately i can track a tiny point with a joystick??
well i am pretty good with this with my present joystick.Although its no easy task to track finer movements with these new digital sticks and I can see no way i could be more accurate unless i somehow employed the mouse(?) to track the floor? but is this really a skill to learn?
we need some other method.
what about a moving line that creeps along as you approach target and you have to hit the drop button just as it passes a 'best drop' marker on the headsup display?
these markers could be set by using the present system but without the dumb joystick marking routine?
Alternatively have a system where you set your speed over ground part not with the joystick but by using keys or perhaps whilst in the look directly down mode you mark an object as it passes the top of the sight and again as it exits the bottom of the sight so that with 2 accurately pressed marks you get a speed readout which you enter into the sight computer.

if my innacuraccy has nothing to do with the 'mark target' part of the process then please ignore this but if it turns out that it is because of this then please be aware that my joystick and id imagine several others isnt much good at this fine tracking. or at least its far too tempremental to gain a skill at it .

What i dont want is to stop flying bombers because i cant hit anything even if i do get there in one peice.

I just want to enjoy flying and avoid frustration.ITS WHAT IM HERE FOR

[Saintaw]

Hazed , zoom in the map to a maximum when setting drop altitude, there are variances that are pretty steep, this will mess your drop.

got a hard time stayin on that target too...

[hazed-]

always go full zoom to set it but thats another thing that maybe shouldnt be so hard to pinpoint when the huge square of the base is smaller than the icon that covers it.Its hard to be sure the number is actually the base or not.

its all a bit hit and miss for my taste. ends up being plain annoying.

[Easyscor]

IMO Hazed didn't go far enough.  I've practiced more than anyone in my squad, more than the majority of players in the game, offline, in the Training arena, and in the MA.  As one of the two bomber flight leaders, it fell to me to follow every lead in determining how to master the new bombsight.  I've talked to many on vox who say they can do it but when you press them for the details you find they miss most of the time.
    My conclusion, and I can get close most of the time, is it can't be done with any consistancy and is ineffective.  I have recommended to all my squad members, "just don't do it, it's a waste of time."  For the most part, they've already reached the same conslusion but they still hope for answers.
   This isn't real life with 300 buffs being tasked by allied command to tackle a City.  We're here to have fun, not be frustrated with a system which has no effect on the rest of the game.
    I have a lot of respect for HT but I think they've gotten this wrong.  Just my opinion.
    If there's someone out there who can demostrate consistent results by hitting the intended target, not just nearby targets, I'll shut up but I want to see screen shots of hangers going down, not just a brag, and not with the green training reticle.  One time out of 5 times I can take out 1 hanger.  How many screen shots can you get?

Easyscor
Flight Leader " 113 Lucky Strikes "

[Kweassa]

You are missing the whole point of the new bombing system, friend Easyscor.

 Reduce accuracy, increase payload is the new agenda, and thus, we don't see bullshi* 30k buffs smart bombing, picking off single objects with plus-minus 10 yard accuracy like it used to. You can still pick off single hangars, but the question is, why in the heck does anyone wish to try level a single building with a carpet bombing platform consisted of three planes?

 It's a waste of time because it's a wrong effort. If you want to level an airbase, take two friends with you wit total of 9 buffs and just cream the whol area with bombs. Otherwise if you expect to take out hangars one by one like we used to, of course it's a waste of time. How can it not be?

 If you are insisting the accuracy is so random that you can't even put multiple bombs in a single "area", in that case, you are doing something wrong.

[mipoikel]

I agree kweassa. Its time to large buffraids like bishes did yesterday. Imagine 30 buffs dropping their bombs to airfield, salvo 100 and delay 0.5 (not 0.05)

[Kronos]

people are getting upset because they aim for a specific target, and cant seem to hit it, either bombs drop short, or too far.  They are getting frustrated because they cant figure out an accurate way of bombing a target.  THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

It's not meant to be accurate.

The way I approach the new bomber system is this.

I take a lancaster formation up,  to about 10K above field elevation.  bomb settings are, 14 x1000 lbs, salvo 14, delay .7
25 miles out or more, I retard throttles to boost 9, then open doors.  Wait till about 10 miles out, and then goto bombsight, and calibrate.

I drop when I see the end of the runways about where my crosshairs are, maybe a little before.  (not on runway, but parallel, depending on what line im crossing the base at.

Watch the bombs fall.  14 1000'lbs at a delay of .7 will cut across the entire field.


You're bound to hit something.  now, multiply that by 4 or 5 persons bombing the field, and the field will be down in short ordder.

Don't expect to 1 specific target, just point your crosshairs in a line that has objects in the way.  It's not 100% accurate, but I can generally get atleast 1 hanger, a couple of fuels or ammos, and some acks, on a medium sized field.

On a larger field, its even easier, because of the amount of targets there.  Smaller fields ovbiously are the worst ones as far as amount of damage to be instilled by one pass bombing.  The only way to get much of anything, is to line up N-S and target a line across a hanger.

[Easyscor]

Kweassa,

I don't think so.

First, flying bombers was one of the best ways for new players to learn the game.  I've read your very good primer on the new bombing model and salute you on the effort.  The problem I have with the new model is two fold.  The learning curve is very steep and after you've gotten reasonably good at it, you realilize for the most part, your efforts will have no effect on the flow of the game.

Sure, you say it now requires teamwork.  Granted.  Twelve of my squadmates upped B-17s to try to flatten an airfield the other day so the Knights could move in and capture a key base.  Of the twelve players, only one managed to hit a fighter hanger and only then, because one of the first to drop reported hitting west and long on the target.

If that's the way we have to do it, fine.  It's not what I expect.  I think others agree with  me.  If you want to call me one of those bullshi* players, so be it, no hard feelings.  I just think there should be other targets besides the enemy Cities unless you want to add one h*ll of a lot more cities and make them SEVERELY affect the region around them.  Then you have to ask yourself, are we going for points and ranking or are you trying to capture territory for the team?

My point?  Bombers are useless at present.  Now the ball is in your court, tell me please, what impact do they have as inaccurate as they are?  All the strat targets can be resupplied within minutes so please, don't tell me about the down times and the resupply system.

This sounds like a personal attack but nothing could be further from the truth Kweassa, I know you for someone with the good of the game at hart.  I just find this whole thing very frustrating.  I know I can hit the target as often as anybody in the game, even more so, but what's the point if it has no effect for the squad or team?

Easyscor

[Angus]

For most I agree with Hazed.
What you could do with a single Lancaster before, you need 9 for now.
I never hit a building I was aiming for, regardless of altitude (less altitude giving less error), so I use the carpet strategy.
My best results were actually while bombing in external view, not through the bombsight.
So, now a single 110 will in my hands destroy more than a formation of 3 Lancasters, and I think that has to be fixed.
But how?
Well, maybe the Speed calibration could be on auto, so your task would be to maintain the exact same speed.
Or spread the formation a bit, oe even allow you to set it with a dot command, ".distance xxx yards"?
Well, I dunno, but I think some adjustments need to be made.

[Easyscor]

mipoikel wrote:

Imagine 30 buffs dropping their bombs to airfield, salvo 100 and delay 0.5 (not 0.05)

mipoikel,
That's just the problem, you can imagine it, I have to actually pull it off on squad night.

Kronos wrote:

...I retard throttles to boost 9...

Kronos,
Enough said.

Again, the point is, even if you take a group of bombers, some of the most destructive machines of WWII, they are ridiculously ineffective especially in the local theater of operations.  A single Ostwind is more effective than a whole flock of Lancasters and much more survivable.

Easyscor

[Kronos]

Ur point of my post was?  I dont understand.

Also think about this.  Maybe HTC didn't design the bomber system with the MA in mind?  Just maybe, they designed the bomber system with MAJOR SCENARIOS, and TOD's in mind.

Its very hard to get individuals in the MA to cooperate and run heavy bombing missions.  And the bombers by themselves are not as effective with just 1 person.   But, in a major scenario, like say BOB coming up for example, each person slated for a JU88 is going to be 3.  Now you will have the massive bombing that was done during that time.  And back then, *SURPRISE* it wasn't all just point and click.

[hazed-]

kweassa i use your method of salvo bombing with a higher delay time and yes i can hit bases but NEVER where my calibration says it should.

I  have done 10 pilot bomber missions and basically of the 10 only 1 manages to get the calibration right evn when we have all practiced.I actually DO want it to be hard but i want it to be a skill or at least to have a little more chance of a miss still hitting something than we have presently.
Seems to me we have reduced accuracy by 90% and increased numbers by 200% then reduced their affect by making formation so tight the bombs either all hit (if your lucky) or all miss even if you hit reasonably near.

The whole ballance is wrong for the present bombing technique.

if it stays as it is, highly innaccurate, then we need to widen the formation so we make 3 seperate tracks of craters instead of just one thats slightly wider and next to useless.
If we are going to have to calibrate using the present tracking and marking method then we need an option to use the mouse or something similar so we dont have to use a bulky joystick,
If no change in width of formation then put more small no essential targets on a base so at least you blow SOMETHING up! anything but this SHEER boredom inducing misses as your bombs hit the base but track nicely between the buildings you are aiming for!! Im sick of it personally.
If i have to stay dead straight after calibration then i want some method to line up on a target from a longer distance.As it is i do all the calibration and if im dead lucky once ive finished it the line of the sight passes over a hanger.If it doesnt and i move it(my bomber) over left or right even a small amount the line of the sight doesnt indicate correctly anymore where the bombs will drop
and i miss the damn thing anyway.

Kweassa Im sorry but I know real bombers could miss by miles but they had realistic targets and did realistic damage and those craters couldnt be driven over by an aircraft and nor did they get the damn targets up and running again in 15 minutes.and no c47's could bring in aircraft hangers that produced unlimited aircraft from 25 miles away.if we gonna have realism lets keep it balanced all around eh?

IT NEEDS FIXING HTC.

[AKSWulfe]

Originally posted by Easyscor
Again, the point is, even if you take a group of bombers, some of the most destructive machines of WWII, they are ridiculously ineffective especially in the local theater of operations.  A single Ostwind is more effective than a whole flock of Lancasters and much more survivable.

So wait... you mean they are more representative of what flying bombers in WWII was like?

What alt do you drop from? Standard bomb dropping alt was 18-25K in WWII...

They went from uber-easymode to somewhat more realistic methods of delivering their pay loads... guess no one likes a challenge anymore.
-SW

[Shiva]

So wait... you mean they are more representative of what flying bombers in WWII was like?

As far as your bombs not dropping precisely on the pixel your bombsight is pointing at? Yes. As far as you being one plane among the two hundred bombers flying over the airfield to turn it into a moonscape? Not hardly.

They went from uber-easymode to somewhat more realistic methods of delivering their pay loads... guess no one likes a challenge anymore.

And, in the process, retained their strategic uselessness because of the irrelevance of strategic targets to anything else in the arena, while tossing what tactical utility they had out the window; there's nothing you can do with a buff group now against an airfield that you can't do faster with jabos. Except for putting more targets in the air for the fighters to shoot at.

But some of us are going to keep flying bombers anyway, in the hopes that there will be some point to strategic bombing.

[AKSWulfe]

No, they just can't do what they use to be able to do with one person.

Check this out-> people who fly fighters need a wingman or two to be extremely successful. Always been the case.

Now, after 2 years of easymode bombers need to actually go out in groups to be successful and some guys flying bombers get all teary eyed..

BTW, 200 bombers for an airfield? Nah... for Ploesti oil fields... yes... for an airfield? Not even close.
-SW