Author Topic: Israeli settlers on rampage.. (Read 1877 times)

Hortlund · « **Reply #30 on:** July 30, 2002, 03:27:01 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Nashwan

Give the Palestinians a state, where they have a chance of a normal life, not subject to Israeli military law and the depradations of extremist settlers, and few of them will be interested in the extremist crying "death to Israel".

[/b]
How do you know that? I mean, its a nice theory and all, but frankly, the arab track record in this area aint exactly spotless.
Why should we trust the arabs with a Palestinian state now? Is there any reason whatsoever to assume that they will respect Israel this time around? Wishful thinking Nashwan...based on some idealistic notion that all people are good inside. Naive. Dangerous.

Quote

A proportion of the Palestinians, who were born inside Israel, not in the occupied territories, have Israeli citizenship, and therefore political rights and (almost) full legal rights. These Israeli Arabs, about 800,000 of them, do not engage in terrorism.

[/b]
And how many of them would prefer to be living in a Palestinian state where there were no Israel at all? And what do you really know about the motivations and desires of these 800 000 arabs? The only reason they do not engage in terrorism as much as their arab brethren in the west bank and gaza is because they are kept under a very watchful eye. Again, wishful thinking Nashwan. Naive. Dangerous.

Quote

There were peace moves underway last week. The Tamzin, and Fatah were on the verge of launching a cease fire, and even Hamas was interested in joining in. Look for Sheik Yassin's speech of a few weeks ago. A truce might well hae been imminent.

The chairman of the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, MK Haim Ramon. says he has documents showing Fatah were due to announce a cease fire within days.

Sharon new about these efforts, and went ahead and ordered a 2000lb bomb dropped on a block of apartments. Sound like he wants peace?

Ah yes, the Israelis want war, not peace. If nothing else, history shows that...uh..no wait.

Anyway, the Israelis used a bomb to kill a terrorist leader. The bomb caused collateral damage. Good job on the terrorist leader, too bad about the collateral damage.

There would have been no collateral damage if the terrorist leaders did not try to hide amog civilians. If they were concerned with civilian casualties, they would not set up their bases inside refugee camps or in appartment buildings, they would hide in caves.

Staga · « **Reply #31 on:** July 30, 2002, 04:30:45 AM »

Let's take a next step:
Killing childrens is okay. Now they're playing with wooden guns but in 10 years they will have a Galil or AK-47 in their hands. Why wait 10 years when you can kill them right now ?

Collateral damage my ass...

babek- · « **Reply #32 on:** July 30, 2002, 05:40:07 AM »

Collateral damage... What a discriminating word...

They fired an air- to-surface missile on a six-level civilian buildings which was full of innocent people, including women and little children, in order to kill one terrorist.

Its like if the police shoots with a flamethrower in a crowd of civilians on the street because one of the persons in this crowd was a searched terrorist.

And then the responsibles really stoods up and tell that they are sorry that there have been civilian and innocent losses.

Hortlund · « **Reply #33 on:** July 30, 2002, 05:56:15 AM »

Staga:
The method you are describing is the standard terrorist method of attack. Target women and children directly to cause maximum damage.

Babek:
A more valid analogy would be if a US warplane dropped a bomb on a cave where they thought OBL was hiding together with a bunch of civilians. And of cource the responsible ones are sorry that alot of civilians died in the attack. Soldiers do not go to war against women and children, that is what terrorists do.

Both of you:
Whine all you want. Fact remains, the Israelis used a bomb to kill a terrorist leader. The bomb caused collateral damage. Good job on the terrorist leader, too bad about the collateral damage.

There would have been no collateral damage if the terrorist leaders did not try to hide among civilians. If they were concerned with civilian casualties, they would not set up their bases inside refugee camps or in appartment buildings, they would hide in caves.

It is pathetic to see how the pals are playing the media and suckering in feebleminded people like you two. Set up a bomb factory in a refugee camp. If the Israelis attack it there are bound to be civilians getting hit too = tv pictures of dead palestinians = whining bastards in Europe crying their little hearts out over the innocent victims. Best part is that if the bomb maker screws up and blows himself up (which has happened from time to time) blame the Israelis = tv pictures of dead palestinians = whining bastards in Europe crying their little hearts out over the innocent victims.

Eagler · « **Reply #34 on:** July 30, 2002, 06:46:14 AM »

how many died with the bomb?

14? of which 9 were kids, not clear on what the other 5 were? Relatives/buddies of hunted terrorist?? dunno

now what if Israel dropped troops, brought in tanks to "arrest" this murdering terrorist? How many innocents would be killed then? 14 sounds low to me when you consider the alternative. Or should they have just let the terrorist continue to plan the murder of their citizens??

I think if the US knew 100% that a known leading murdering terrorist ring leader thug (Obin and like) was in a building and we didn't kill him, our media/dumbocrats would try to fry this admin. Then again if we got him and killed 14 innocents to get him, the media/dumbocrats would fry this admin. Dam if they do, dam if they don't ... at least one way the target is eliminated.

straffo · « **Reply #35 on:** July 30, 2002, 07:09:37 AM »

IMO the point is : how can the Isrealy pretend they are the smart guys if the behave exactly the same ?

Hortlund · « **Reply #36 on:** July 30, 2002, 07:18:30 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by straffo
IMO the point is : how can the Isrealy pretend they are the smart guys if the behave exactly the same ?

The day Israeli soldiers strap on explosive belts and walk up to palestinian women with baby carriages to blow themselves up THEN they would be behaving exactly the same.

There is a difference between using the military to kill terrorists and using terrorists to kill civilians. There still is a difference even if the military happens to kill innocent civilians in the process.

The difference is that between explicitly targeting civilians (a crime), and causing civilian casualties while targeting valid military targets (collateral damage).

One is accepted, the other is not.

Rooster · « **Reply #37 on:** July 30, 2002, 07:37:57 AM »

When the Palestinians lay down their arms there will be no more violence.

When the Israelis lay down their arms there will be no more Israel.

straffo · « **Reply #38 on:** July 30, 2002, 07:38:50 AM »

sure steve ...

But as this conflict is longuer and longer ...

I don't believe anymore in a politcal solution coming from one side or the other ...

It just becoming a "routine" no side is making any move toward peace...and as I'm now fed up of this mass killing (from both side )

I've found the solution : I don't follow the news anymore

I let both side doing what they do the best : killing each other.

Seeker · « **Reply #39 on:** July 30, 2002, 07:55:36 AM »

Reading this here (much of it emotive dribble); I wonder what your collective learned responses would have been should Her Majesty's forces have deemed it oppertune to launch an air strike against Gerry Adams house?

And yes, we also have experience with bomb disposal and stone throwing. Most of the bombs were American financed.

Nashwan · « **Reply #40 on:** July 30, 2002, 12:28:41 PM »

Quote

Why should we trust the arabs with a Palestinian state now? Is there any reason whatsoever to assume that they will respect Israel this time around? Wishful thinking Nashwan...based on some idealistic notion that all people are good inside. Naive. Dangerous.

No, it's based on the conservative notion that people act out of self interest.

The more you've got, the less likely you are to risk it.

If Hamas tell an unemployed man, living in a refugee camp, at risk of being evicted any time a group of Israelis decide they want more land, "Follow us and we will defeat the Jews", he's quite likely to follow them.

Try the same trick on a man with a job, house, family and some measure of security, and he'll tell you where to go.

Quote

And how many of them would prefer to be living in a Palestinian state where there were no Israel at all? And what do you really know about the motivations and desires of these 800 000 arabs? The only reason they do not engage in terrorism as much as their arab brethren in the west bank and gaza is because they are kept under a very watchful eye. Again, wishful thinking Nashwan. Naive. Dangerous.

I suspect they want what most people want, better housing, schools,more more, better job etc.

As to them not engaging in terrorism because they are closely watched: Israeli Arabs have far more opportunity for terrorism than Palestinians. They are not watched as closely as the people in the territories.

All an Israeli Arab would have to do to launch a suicide attack is drive his car into a crowd at a bus stop, or buy a gun and go on a shooting spree.

There is simply no support for terrorism amongst them.

Quote

There would have been no collateral damage if the terrorist leaders did not try to hide amog civilians. If they were concerned with civilian casualties, they would not set up their bases inside refugee camps or in appartment buildings, they would hide in caves.

You don't know much about the Gaza strip, do you? The population density is approx 3300 people per sq km. That's about 1.5 times the population density of the Vatican. It's also about 30 times the pop density of Northern Ireland, and the IRA never took to hiding in caves, or anywhere else in the countryside either. (Mind you, Britain never took to using aircraft to bomb civilians)

Hortlund · « **Reply #41 on:** July 30, 2002, 12:40:16 PM »

Yeah, but then again, what the Brits had to endure from the IRA is nothing like what the Israelis have had to endure from the arabs. And times change. The brits used SAS to track down and sometimes take out IRA leaders. The Israelis do the same thing with the arabs, their kills are not always as surgical as the brits were.

Take a look at the 9-11 hijackers. Lots of family fathers, with good education, good work, good living in western-oriented countries. These people do not think the same way we do. It is wrong to assume that. Naive. Dangerous.

Take a look at the latest wave of suicide bombers. Family fathers, people with high education, with jobs, with "good" family ties.

People act out of self interest most of the time. But you forget to add into that equation, that some peoples self interest involves killing others.

These people do not think the same way we do. It is wrong to assume that. Naive. Dangerous.

As for the gaza strip. You know full well that most of that population is concentrated in the towns and cities, with lots of rural "wasteland". Or is this where you are going to tell me that those people are spread out evenly 3300 people per square km?

babek- · « **Reply #42 on:** July 30, 2002, 01:44:26 PM »

Hortlund: " These people do not think the same way we do. It is wrong to assume that. Naive. Dangerous. "

Do you know that here in Germany some decades ago the Nazis said the same about the jewish people ?

"The subhumans of the jewish race are not like us. They are not thinking like we do. They are dangerous parasites who are inflicting damage to the german people. So we have the right to eliminate them. Like a hygienical operation for a better world."

Do you see the similiarities of the Nazi-nonsense and your statement?

Hortlund · « **Reply #43 on:** July 30, 2002, 01:52:16 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by babek-
Hortlund: " These people do not think the same way we do. It is wrong to assume that. Naive. Dangerous. "

Do you know that here in Germany some decades ago the Nazis said the same about the jewish people ?

"The subhumans of the jewish race are not like us. They are not thinking like we do. They are dangerous parasites who are inflicting damage to the german people. So we have the right to eliminate them. Like a hygienical operation for a better world."

Do you see the similiarities of the Nazi-nonsense and your statement?

Not really.

Because they are thinking differently. But what is the big deal with that? Every culture has its own morals and values. Or is this where you are going to tell us all that there is no difference between a western european factory worker, a chinese peasant, an arab terrorist or a brazilian indian? These people (terrorists and terrorist sympathizers) value other things than we do, they fear other things than we fear, the are capable of things we are not capable of. To assume that they think the way we do, value the things we value, fear the things we fear is wrong, misleading, naive and ultimately dangerous.

But if you are trying to call me a nazi, get in line I think there are three of you now on this board. Perhaps you could start a club or something.

babek- · « **Reply #44 on:** July 30, 2002, 02:22:54 PM »

@Hortlund

You are justifiing actions against other humans with the argument that this specific group is different and dangerous and not thinking the same way like us.

Its the same way the Nazis told my ancestors why there had to be actions against defined groups like the jews, the homosexuals or the gipsies.

And such a behavior is the really danger - because it can change humans into monsters.

As the Nazis has proved some decades ago and as many other people and governments show us still today.