Howard Huges Designed the Zero

[straffo]

that answer my question

That He112 is so ugly that only the brit can have it copied leading to the abominous creation we have to call sissyfire

berk berk

Straffo


still a losewaffle apprentice

[Hornet]

Gotta wonder how the Germans who had that graceful looking HE70 in 1932 could do no better than the 109 series by the start of the war...some sort of internal politics perhaps to rob Heinkel of a fighter contract?

[GRUNHERZ]

Hornet there were actually internal politics trying to rob Messerschmitt from a fighter contract, toejam the RLM even tried to keep him out of the fighter competition alltoghether. The 109 simply performed much better and was a more advanced design.

[senna]

No he didnt, those planes you see above look nothing like these.

[Hortlund]

Great post Grunherz, really interesting reading. I actually had no idea about that

[Scot]

Grunherz,

Excellent post(s).


Scot
3./JG2

[BGBMAW]

lol just kidding..but dont you guy sknow anything about the Japanes???

Ill quote a Football player from, Green Bay....

"the Japanese are real smart....they can make a microwave from a wacth".....

"the mexicans are real good at organzing and housing,,,they can have four familes in one house"


Dude,,this guy is an idiot..lmfao.......

thx Reggie White ...green bAy footbal player...

So yes the Japanes can make a zero form a pocketknife..llolollool

Love BiGB
xoxoxo

[Karnak]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Should I even bother?

THE LEGENDARY SPITFIRE
By Wolfdietrich Hoeveler German name.  Interesting taht you should use a German source over a British source.
She was the aeroplane built in the largest numbers in Great Britain, defended the country in the "Battle of Britain" against the German Air Force and thus founded her legendary fame on the British Isles. Even today she is the star of every air show in Britain: the Supermarine Spitfire.

Pilots simply loved the Spitfire. She was not an easy plane to fly, but was regarded as reliable and especially agile and a great performer during air battles. Although several versions existed, she was mostly used as either a single seat fighter or for reconnaissance purposes. The Royal Air Force used other planes for air-ground tasks.

The Spitfire was easy to fly, not so much as the Hurricane, but still easy.  The Spitfire was used extensively for ground attack missions as there was no Luftwaffe left to shoot down my mid 44.

The creator of this successful fighter plane was Reginald J. Mitchell, Chief Designer with Supermarine Aviation, which was a sub-company of the Vickers Group from 1928 onwards. Since 1913 Supermarine, which was situated near Southampton, mainly built seaplanes.

In the 1920s Mitchell was responsible for the construction of the record-breaking planes S.5, S.6 and S.6B, which were awarded the Schneider-Trophy for the world's fastest aircraft in 1927, 1929 and 1931.Towards the end of 1931 the S.6B set the world speed record of 656km/h.

In the same year, Supermarine applied for the contract to build a new fighter plane to the specification F.7/30 by the British Ministry of Aviation with their design 244. The first Supermarine design was a far cry from the Spitfire, which followed later, and did not fulfil the Ministry's expectations. Gloster's bid was accepted with their Gladiator.

However, Mitchell and his team had gained important experience as far as the construction of land planes was concerned, and the company was still interested in building a fighter for the Royal Air Force. Towards the end of 1934 the Board of Directors at Vickers finally asked Mitchell to develop a new aircraft. Vickers was to provide the funding. The plane, which was armed with four machine guns, was to receive Rolls-Royce's brand new P.V.12 Engine, which was named "Merlin" when series production started. In April 1935 it flew for the first time in a Hawker Hart.

Once the mock-up of Type 300 was completed at the end of April 1935, officials and designers were unanimous, when they viewed the model: It was to be a great success.

Some alterations were necessary and the Ministry of Aviation quickly made the money available. Amongst other things the wing design was to be changed. The resulting characteristic elliptical shape produced very thin wings, which were still able to hold the fuselage and weapons, and could withstand the strains of air battle. It was planned to arm this aircraft with eight American Browning-MG's.

The Type 300 first came into being, with eliptical wings and all, on Sheet 11 on 24 September, 1934.  This design replaced Type 425 which did not have eliptical wings.  There never was a Type 300 without eliptical wings.

During constructions great emphasis was placed on reducing air resistance. Extremely smooth surfaces were created. Rivets were not going to mar the performance of this aircraft.

In achieving this, Supermarine engineers took on board results, made available by the German designer Ernst Heinkel. While the Aérosalon 1932 took place in Paris, Mitchell wrote a letter to Heinkel with the following question: "Was the skin of the aircraft exhibited in Paris made of metal or was plywood used to cover the fuselage?" He also showed an interest in British research about the He 70 with new English aircraft engines: "We found to our consternation that despite its vast dimensions your plane is markedly faster than our fighters."

And after this exchange a Rolls-Royce Representative did get in touch with Heinkel in Warnemünde. He suggested the Germans to purchase an He 70 in order to fit her with the new 810 h.p. Rolls-Royce engine Kestrel V and offer her globally. There simply would be no faster plane on earth.

Heinkel was not averse to this proposal and suggested a deal: an He 70 in exchange for the licensing rights of the Kestrel V. The London Ministry of Aviation was soon in agreement, however the new rulers in Berlin were not prepared to give their consent to this idea. This is why Rolls Royce bought a Heinkel He 70, which reached a speed of 420km/h with the Kestrel engine.

The aircraft was checked over thoroughly by the Royal Aircraft Establishment in Farnborough. And this is when Supermarine became interested. The elliptical wing shape of the He-70 convinced even Mitchell.

However, according to this very document, the Type 300 was already designed with eliptical wings.  What is the date of the He70 tests?  What are the sources of this information?  Sheet 13, which diagrams an aircraft very little removed from the familiar Spitfire, was shown to the air Ministry on 5 December, 1934.  Nowhere in any of my books is the He70 even mentioned in passing, let alone as the primary inspiration for the eliptical wings.

I submit this:

"A second Supermarine employee, who was also working in the design office at the same period, confirms this event. Mr. E J Davis told the authors- "The wing shape was decided before the final detail design started in the drawing office and the key was the wing spar, which was not swept back. The original klinked spar of F7/30 would have made the wing joints almost impossible to make (bending the booms for dihedral was bad enough). Also, the line of the spar web was datum for setting up the twist as each rib had a different incidence. Manufacture would have been most difficult if the spar was not at right angles to the ribs.  Although the final wing shape was not a true ellipse it was evolved from one.  The spar, positioned at 25% chord, together with the thick nose skin, provided all the bending and torsinal strength of the wing, but in a true ellipse it would have curved backwards from the root to tip."
A third ex-Supermarine employee is able, by proxy, to contribute towards this story.  Mr. Davis also revealed that he had worked with R S Dickson on the Type 300 and he states- "As further proof I made photocopies of some of the early calculations made in May 1934 on the F7/30, Type 224 development by R S Dickson, a young engineer who made the project drawings for Allan Clifton and Ernie Mansbridge. At that time the amended design had a Goshawk steam cooled engine and a straight tapered wing.  Dickson told me- "The wing at this stage had no kink in it, as the F7/30, and was straight tapered, but later the final, elliptical shape was shown on my drawing.  This was condemned as not producable in quantity, but the eight gun installation appeared about this time (F5/34) from the Air Ministry and it was not found possible to to get the outer guns in a straight taper, but easier in an ellipse.  So the elliptical wing prevailed."

During the Battle of Britain only 19 Flights used the Spitfire. Most units operated with Hawker Hurricanes. Still, half of the losses suffered by German fighters were due to the Spitfire. The reason was that the Hurricane, which was by far inferior to the Spitfire and the Bf 109, concentrated her efforts on fighting attacking bombers. Between August 1940 and May 1941 the RAF lost 1,172 aircraft in the Battle of Britain. 402 of these were Spitfires. The Luftwaffe had to lament the loss of 2,000 aircraft, among them 610 Bf 109.

This is a frequent statement, but all actual data I have seen points to the Hurricane getting 2.3rds of the kills in the BoB.  That would make sense as 2/3rds of British fighters were Hurricanes and the Spitfires were tasked with the more difficult task of fighting the Bf109s.

From the end of 1942 they could be distinguished by additional abbreviations:
* F. = fighter
*L.F. = fighter-bomber for deployment in low and medium altitudes
* H.F = high altitude fighter
* F.R. = photo reconnaissance plane

This is not quite accurate.
* F. = fighter
*L.F. = fighter-bomber for deployment in low and medium altitudes
* H.F = high altitude fighter
* P.R. = photo reconnaissance plane
*F.R. = photo reconnaissance fighter

As we can see this document contains errors and does not give conclusive evidence of GRUNHERZ' claim.

(I had to delete chunks of GRUNHERZ' ducument to get under the character limit for a post)

[GRUNHERZ]

I'm thinking you will only believe this when Reginal Mitchell tells you himself. Even then yI think you will demand a DNA test to prove who he is. Bet hes dead.... How convenient.

I am curious though what would you consider "evidence".

As far as I see it any claim anyome makes and any argument or evidence anyone presents on this BBS can simply be rejected by a "well I just dont like it".


Enough! You know it's true and I love that it bothers you so much.  

[Karnak]

GRUNHERZ,

How about some actual documentation.

The problem with the story you posted is that it doesn't match the Spitfire's development time line.  It contains events that did not happen (mock ups of the Type 300 without elliptical wings) and includes the He70 in a time frame after wheich elliptical wings were already settled on.

Further, it only states that Mitchell said those things, it doesn't give any sources.  The document has numerous errors and spends quite some time on the He70/Spitfire connection.

I do consider it a bit of evidence, but not nearly enough to make the claim that you make.

The Spitfire may have used some data from the He70, maybe even some engineering solutions, but it contains no evidence that the idea was taken from the He70.  Quite the contrary, the books I have indicate the elliptical wings were arrived at quite independantly.

[GRUNHERZ]

I know its not a "silver bullet" source. In fact thats just what I found on google in 10 minutes. There was another source I read this in, and it quoted somebody said to have been the leader of the Spitfire wing design team. Plus somebody else brought this up in one of the Bearcat flamefests.

I'll try to find it.  

Another thing though why did you so dismiss this based on that it was written by somebody who has a German name? Are you saying he is a lier because he's German and therefore cant know anything about spitfire development, or that hes lying because of bias. Should only people who live in a country of a planes development be allowed to write histories of it?  I'm not trying to bash you on this but thats kinda immature criticism.

I put alot of weight in this story because it makes sense. The Brits were wildy impressed with the plane. Mitchell had contacts with Heinkel. None of the Supermarine fighters had ellipticals. And then comes the He70.

I know the possibilty of Spitfire wing being based on German technolgy is touchy to you RAF devotees but keep an open mind. Everyone shared ideas.

Edit: Here's the thread posted by that ever biased king of Luftwhiners Vermillion....

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10071&highlight=Bearcat+AND+Heinkel

[Karnak]

The comment about the German name was a note of irony given who was posting the info.  In no way did I dismiss it because of the author's name.

As I said, it is a bit of info, but I'd like more.

R S Dickson may be the name you're looking for as to the wing engineer, but he may have just been an understudy.  I'm not sure.

There are four levels here:

1) The Spitfire wing is a direct copy of the He70 wing
2) The Spitfire wing is based on the He70 wing
3) The Spitfire wing was infuenced by the He70 wing
4) The Spitfire wing was designed completely independantly of the He70 wing

I would tend to bet on #3.


Here is an interesting tidbit for you, after the He112 lost the industrial competition to the Bf109 (many people, including the pilots were surprised by that), some of the He112s were sold to the Japanese navy.  The IJN hated them because of their heavy, by IJN standards, wing loading.  However Aichi took the idea of the elliptical wing and used it in the D3A "Val".

[GRUNHERZ]

Val... Thats pretty much exactly the extent of what I claim for He70 and Spitfire.

[Karnak]

The difference is that Aichi engineers had He112s to examine and disasemble, where the Supermarine development timeline of the Spitfire doesn't mesh in that way with the dates in the article you provided.

The He70 data could have been used to overcome technicle hurdles, ones thst Supermarine was running up against but that Heinkel had already run ito and solved.  I could also see the general concept being inspired by Heinkel's He70.

However, I don't see how Supermarine could have had access to an He70, examined it in detail and then designed the Spitfire.  That timeline just doesn't fit the data.

[GRUNHERZ]

"This is why Rolls Royce bought a Heinkel He 70, which reached a speed of 420km/h with the Kestrel engine.

The aircraft was checked over thoroughly by the Royal Aircraft Establishment in Farnborough. And this is when Supermarine became interested. The elliptical wing shape of the He-70 convinced even Mitchell."


Unless the author if flat out lying this clearly says the British aeronautical community ( I assume RAE is like NASA or TSAGI? ) had access to fully built He70 that they owned. It also establishes that Mitchell was around it enough to be convinced of the viabilty of the eliptical wing.  

I donno unless the author is liar I see this as pretty strking support for a closer relationship.